"Just because you don't agree with the other side doesn't mean that you have the right to lie and they don't."

The pro-choicers are more forward than the so-called pro-lifers are.

So because you believe you are "more forward" than another group it is ok for you to lie and not that group?

This begs several question; Where is "forward"?  By what measure do you use to gauge what is forward? How do you know what direction is really forward, and what is backward.  Maybe you are just more left rather than being forward.  Maybe we can just forget the whole directionality thing.  

When you are willing to censor the opposition simply because they don't agree with you  you turn your back on true freedom of speech. I then have to wonder if you can still see yourself as more "forward" if you don't believe in freedom of speech...

"Where is "forward"?"

Forward as in the pro-choicers don't use the terms "unborn child", "muder" or the phrase "keep your legs closed" or religious propaganda or the elaborate speeches about "life" and "emotions," the way the pro-lifers do.  Pro-choicers also don't use guilt tactics or scare tactics like pro-lifers do.  

"you turn your back on true freedom of speech."

Even "true" freedom of speech has some restrictions.  Try again.

As fas as the first few phrases, I'll concede that language used is unpleasant to hear, however if you believe that the fetus is a living being the phrase fits.  I don't believe the phrases are constructive so I refrain from using them but I do believe that "unborn child" is far from speech that justifies censorship. 

Let's put the shoe on the other foot though. Pro-choicer like th infer that all pro-lifers are "bible thumpers", in fact you have done it to me in this very blog.  You like to say you can't be for womens rights without being pro choice, my wife would disagree on that one. so let's be honest here Sarah, both sides name call, both sides offend, both sides belittle. And the scare tactics... well my wife can attest to the fact abortion clinics use those too.

True freedom of speech is recognizing that another person has the right to say things that enrage you (even as you say things that enrage them just as much).  One of my favorite phrases is from a contemporary of Voltare.  "I disprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

It's not ok for either side to lie.  But this video isn't about that.  It's about using government money to fund religious propoganda, which is illigal in this country.

LOL

It has been my experience that both sides do not believe in choice at their cores, as you stated.  Far from it.  The pro-life side, like the groups that run these fake clinics, do not believe any woman should have a choice to end her pregnancy.  That is why the fake clinics use fraudulent advertising about the kinds of services they provide.  They do not want to be clear about what they do because they want women to come in thinking they are going to get accurate and factual information when what they are going to get is false info designed to convince them not to terminate their pregnancies.  The two sides don't work with each other because the divide is quite deep -- one side believes fundamentally that a woman should have control over her body and the other side believes the opposite.

"If money is being used illegally then this needs to be stopped"

Lying and decieving and manipulating and terrorizing women and girls, as well as impersonating a medical facility and doctors, pretty much counts as illegal use of money.

So it's ok for fake prenatal wellness centers to advertise ultra sounds, vitamins, birthing classes and then try and force an abortion on a woman?  That is exactly what happened to my wife.  She was pregnant last year, we didn't have insurance so we tried to find a low-cost clinic so we could get some basic necessities like vitamins and appointments without having to deplete our bank account to zero.  out of the seven clinics that advertised pre-natal care she only got through five.  every one tried to pressure her into having an abortion.  This is a Married woman who is simply unemployed and they refused any kind of care except for an abortion.  Tell me if that is really caring for the woman, or is it just pushing an agenda? 

I am pro-life, not because I don't believe women should control their bodies, but because I believe that life is not a function of location but rather defined by neurological development.  I reject tie idea that a fetus is not a living being at 40 weeks in the uterus and if delivered at 35 weeks is a living being.  The lack of logic on the pro-choice side in this subject is mind boggling to me.  I am pro life because I believe in giving life the benefit of the doubt.  

"So it's ok for fake prenatal wellness centers to advertise ultra sounds, vitamins, birthing classes and then try and force an abortion on a woman?"

Any real evidence other than hearsay?

"I believe that life is not a function of location but rather defined by neurological development."

That doesn't make for a good argument. 

Thanks for the reply Vicki. I think what I find hard to believe is that these two groups are in that stark a contrast in the majority. Surely there are people in these clinics who do not see the issue purely on saving the pregnancy at the cost of everything else including the mother's life (baby or nothing). Nor can I see the other side pushing the woman's freedom of choice so strongly that she is forced to choose everything but remain pregnant. Though this is what comes across at times. I do not think pro-life in it's purity is about saving babies, but about pushing the point that freedom of choice should be extended to both parties, mother and unborn. And nor do I think pro-choice is purely about giving women freedom of choice without the understanding that choice comes with responsibility and produces repercussions positive or negative, private or public.

I suppose all I am saying is that surely there is some common ground between the two of them. That pro-life are not adult women haters, and pro-choice are not baby haters. I refuse to believe this is the case. I just think that though they would disagree fundamentally about the value of the unborn, surely the value of the women is the same if not increasing but never decreasing. Hence why many women work in both parties.

It would be great to see some conversation happening about the gift of life and gift of choice for women and to see and hear where both sides meet on this.

"I take it you are a supporter of late term abortions then."

If the mother's life is in danger or the fetus is doomed anyway.

"the same evidence as is presented here in the video."

Try to find some other evidence from some other sources that don't come from pro-lifer fanatic bible thumper sites.

Sarah... once again... one liners aren't going to get you very far.  

Let's get started... first off do you know what percentage of women abort late term because of imminent medical complication?  Well not many.  The only study I could find was done by an affiliate of planned parenthood and of 420 late term abortions none were done because of medical complications where the mother feared for her health. In reality 90 percent of fetuses born after 28 weeks go on to live perfectly normal lives and the trauma of an abortion is not that dissimilar to that of a cesarean delivery. In the rare cases where there is imminent danger to the mother and delivery is not an option most pro lifers would say that the decision must be made between loosing two lives and saving one.  You really haven't done much to solidify your opinion though Sarah.  If you are saying that sometimes it is necessary to have an abortion to save the life of the mother, most people agree with you but no data I can find supports the idea that this is the majority of late term abortions.  If you can find one great, post it.  There is even some cases I believe where physical deformities incompatible with life may be cause to spare pain.  It should be noted though that false positives need to be ruled out before women go down that path.  They happen quite frequently.

ON the second sentence... my opinions were formed in physiological psychology classes, where were yours formed?  

Sarah... once again... one liners aren't going to get you very far.  

Let's get started... first off do you know what percentage of women abort late term because of imminent medical complication?  Well not many.  The only study I could find was done by an affiliate of planned parenthood and of 420 late term abortions none were done because of medical complications where the mother feared for her health. In reality 90 percent of fetuses born after 28 weeks go on to live perfectly normal lives and the trauma of an abortion is not that dissimilar to that of a cesarean delivery. In the rare cases where there is imminent danger to the mother and delivery is not an option most pro lifers would say that the decision must be made between loosing two lives and saving one.  You really haven't done much to solidify your opinion though Sarah.  If you are saying that sometimes it is necessary to have an abortion to save the life of the mother, most people agree with you but no data I can find supports the idea that this is the majority of late term abortions.  If you can find one great, post it.  There is even some cases I believe where physical deformities incompatible with life may be cause to spare pain.  It should be noted though that false positives need to be ruled out before women go down that path.  They happen quite frequently.

ON the second sentence... my opinions were formed in physiological psychology classes, where were yours formed?  

Where are your sources Seth.  You can't post information without credible sources.  You need at least 5 to 10

Sure what format you need? 

You - especially since you're a man - can't force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth if she doesn't want to. 

"i have 5 clinics in the Charlotte area that terrorized my wife and lured her to call under false pretense"

What are their names, if it really is 5? 

I gave you one already; Charlotte Pregnancy Care Center.  The rest I will have to ask my wife about... it was about a year ago and we now live in another area of the country. 

Well maybe you should have done your homework before you went to those fake clinics.

You are contradicting yourself here Sarah.  You say that is is unfair for clinics to say they are "crisis pregnancy centers" and not offer abortions, while clinics that advertise prenatal care and vitamins, and then not offer those services.  

No, I said that it's wrong to lie/decieve and manipulate and terrorize and trick and scare and guilt a woman or girl out of the option of abortion through propaganda, religious fanaticism, false advertising, and impersonation of a medical facility and medical physicians, which is what crisis pregnancy centers do.

It's also wrong to lie to a woman/girl about the results of her pregnancy test, which is also what pregnancy crisis centers do. 

Would making abortion illegal change any attitudes?

By changing attitudes I mean, there are attitudes behind the huge numbers of unwanted pregnancies each year, and I think this is actually the root issue that needs to be addressed. Other reasons for unwanted pregnancy aside; couples casual or formal I believe have a low attitude towards responsibility in regards to sex, and I do include myself here. Of course this is the unwanted child of the sexual revolution; that obtaining the freedom to value sexual expression did not increase the value of sex. Even though it is incredible to think that in some countries we have the positive choice to terminate unwanted pregnancies, which is a freedom albeit clouded; the fact that we are not thinking enough about the responsibility of being sexually active is a great shame, and the results are that we have to terminate hundreds of thousands of pregnancies each year.

This is where both sides of the debate need to work together, to talk more honestly about sex and to take the value of sexuality back from just being entertainment outside of responsibility. God willing, my wife and I hope to be part of that change in the way we bring up our family, that grace produces forgiveness and forgiveness produces humility and humility produces responsibility.

In more direct connection with the video, I would be interested to research if we have similar crisis centres in the UK and how they work. Hopefully we can prevent similar things happening here. If anyone knows anything about this in England, do send me an email.

Thanks.

Mr. Herbert, your comments are very thoughtful, but I sincerely believe the answer to your question is that making abortion illegal will not change attitudes about sex.  Attitudes about sex were no different back when abortion was illegal.  People have sex when they shouldn't and people don't use birth control when they should and people get pregnant sometimes even when they do use birth control.  People and the things they do and use are flawed.  People make mistakes. 

I just can't get past the logic of equivocating a fertilized egg with a human being.  If that is true, then are not every sperm and every egg sacred?  Therefore, the Holy Roman forbiddance of birth control should be the law of the land.  We've been there before, too, and the people decided they'd had enough of the church and the government telling them what they could do in their bedrooms. 

In my mind, the question is, do we add insult to injury by criminalizing irresponsibility and misfortune when, in fact, the question of "what is a human life" is one that we obviously could argue about for time ad infinitum?  I have to give a resounding "no" to that question.

I believe your question is appropriate and part of a "next step" that actually needs to start now.  You are on to something and I agree wholeheartedly with your premise that we do not have right thinking/attitude or right behavior toward sexual relations.  But, this is a complicated issue.  Oft times, people's sexual behavior is wrapped up in their parent and sibling relationships.  But, we must start somewhere, no?

Also sorry, that was insensitive of me to ask the question like that. I am sorry that there was possibly not somewhere you could have gone to help you in getting out of immediate circumstances personally and before you became pregnant. There was a primary issue here apart from pregnancy.

I don't mind your asking.  I wouldn't be on this forum if I wanted to hide anything.  Also, having direct and honest exchanges about this subject are what we need.  To answer your question, though, no, other resources would not have made any difference.  As I indicated before, giving up my own flesh and blood is just not a choice I would be capable of making.  Giving birth at that time and keeping the child would have been a horrible mistake.  My family would have made me bear guilt and shame over what had happened and having not worked through the rest of my family crap would have made me an abusive parent. 

"and God is never "pushed" on anyone"

That's a lie.

"I have worked in CPC's for more than 25 years."  

Oh well that explains why you'd post all these lies that Crisis Pregnancy Centers often tell.

"Abortion CAN cause infertility or cause complications in future pregnancies."

It it's a botched abortion or numerous abortions all one after the other.  One or two abortions will not cause infertility or complications of any kind.

Sarah, get some basic information about medical procedure please, for your own sake.  EVERY medical procedure has risks, each one not just consequent instances of the same procedure.  A D&C has a risk of several things happening  (per Obstet Gynecol Clin North Am. 2008;35(2):219-234) ;

-Uterine Puncture

-Tearing of the Cervex

-Scaring of the uterine lining

-Infection

-Bleeding/blood loss (and there is a lot)

-General risks associated with anesthesia (Drug reactions and trouble breathing after being put under)

These risks are the same if you have the procedure once or a hundred times. You don't know if the doctor is going to botch the abortion before the procedure (if you did you wouldn't have it) and statistically you are just as likely to have your procedure botched on the first time as the hundredth... it's the law of statistics.  

 Sarah you continue to post one line replies with no data to substantiate your opinion.  Let me illustrate;

"and God is never "pushed" on anyone"

"That's a lie."

No you are lying. [This statement repudiates your statement with the same intellectual merit as you provided i.e. none]

See how that works, you give no evidence to support your statement and no basis for your opinion (do you have fist hand experience, a friend who feels she was pressured to be religious...).  Added irony points because you ask others to back up their claims.  It's fine to express an opinion, that is what this forum is for, but learn to properly have a discussion.  

"As a matter of policy, our clients sign and agree BEFORE services are rendered that they will be asked about their faith in God and how they feel about abortion.  God is never "pushed" on anyone."

But this is exactly pushing.  As you stated, it is the policy of these CPC's to ask people about God and abortion, thus opening up the conversation to push the views of one specific interpretation of God and the Bible onto the people who come to these clinics for help. 

Now, I'm not saying that there isn't a proper time and place for discussion of these things, but if the clinic is receiving public monies, then it should not include a discussion of God or a point of view about abortion based on specific religious interpretations of the Bible. 

What, I wonder, would the conversation be if a woman said, "I believe in God and in Jesus Christ and I want to have an abortion."  I don't have to wonder long, because I know.  An interpretation of the Bible prohibiting abortion as a sin would come forth.  She would be told that God does not want her to abort her "unborn child."  This is the dogma and the mantra.  I hear it all the time on religious radio broadcasts that I listen to while driving for my employment.  Women who use these clinics are often made to feel that they are damned to Hell if they have an abortion.  Well, if they were not going to have any psychological repercusions from the abortion before the clinic counseling, I bet they would after.

Melody, You say that it is a ludicrous "presumption" that women have been lied to about being pregnant, yet the information in the story was either first or second hand, as I recall.  If the information is coming from the source or close to the source, it is not a presumption, but the true experience of someone who used a particular clinic.  As for clients verifying lies, I think that's precisely the point.  Obviously, some people have spoken with the film makers about their experiences, or the film makers have planted women into the clinics to see what their experiences are.  I mean, you could hear the one woman's recorded voice telling the young woman that her risk of breast cancer would increase by 100%. 

You make some very good points, but, clearly not all of these clinics are the same.  Perhaps the one you worked in was upstanding.  Obviously, from the film's clear representation, this is not always the case. 

We should all be willing to call a spade a spade.  Yes, abortion does have medical risks, just like any other medical procedure.  I can tell you that there are repercussions.  My blood pressure was off the charts when I went through this procedure.  I dont' know why, but I remember being upset.  No one who has a moral center takes having an abortion as some lighthearted thing.  It shouldn't be used as birth control.  Late term abortions (3rd trimester) should be limited (women should make up their minds before that).  BUT, ABORTIONS SHOULD REMAIN LEGAL AND SAFE.  To make them illegal will be to kill women.  Of course, I know there are "right to lifers" out there who think that's just fine and that women who will die of illegal abortions in their "government controls our most private choices" future deserve to die for what is really an act of desperation.

"you ask others to back up their claims."

Which you've failed to do, numerous times.