Women's Rights

You have to remember Sanchez that we live in a country were we are also allowed to chose our religion/faith. We are not all self-identified Christians and we don't all have the same beliefs on the right to life. I am very much an advocate for the right to life. But I am also a health care provider, and I believe in the right to have access to health care, and the right to ones own body. And the right to live and work without being terrorized by people who propose love, but only offer fear.

Sanchez, the truth of it is that a lot of American parents think they own their child and treat their children that way too.   It's a shame.

According to the Constitution, assault of any American citizen is illegal, under the 'equal protection' provided by the 14th Amendment's terms of citizenship, which are a birthright to those born in the U.S.  Those rights aren't with held until the age of 18.  

But then compare that with the number of people in America who still think it is okay to hit their kids -- which by criminal code definitions IS an act of assault -- and which by the Constitution's citizenship terms IS prohibited, even though the state child protection laws conflict with this -- and you've got a nation of parents who believe that age discrimination is okay in applying the laws and that children are less than people in the eyes of the protective codes.  They're treated more like their parents' property.

3 kids die every day in the United States from child abuse, most of them babies and toddlers.   5.8 million children were called in to child services agencies in the United States as abused.   10.6 per 1,000 children in the U.S. are "confirmed" as abused by standards that still allow some assault -- so those kids are severely abused, not just subjected to acts of simple assault.    850 kids go into the foster system in the U.S. every day.

Nobody "likes" the idea of abortion, and I would guess that most of us are bothered by the idea of any abortion being done out of the first trimester too barring severe health issues that may change the circumstances for a mother or child.  

But tell you what -- in terms of abusing priveleges, playing God or abusing rights -- it's far worse to abuse a living child who is here, needs to be loved and protected, and will grow to have an effect on the world whether or not his or her little impressionable mind ever heals from the damage that was done by his/her parents, teachers or caretakers --- than it is to abort when a baby is unwanted (for whatever reason) and avoid those horrible effects upon children.

Apologies, that's 5.8 million in a year, 3 deaths per day in one year's time per the 2007 edition of the U.S. Dept. of Health's 'Child Maltreatment' annual report, and 10.6 per 1,000 over one year of data too.   Some years the figures are higher, hopefully in time to come they'll come down, but they're avoidable figures.    We can fix the child laws to line up with Constitutional citizenship standards, we can end school abuse in the 21 states that allow it, we can enforce our criminal assault codes without age discrimination, and we can act when we see maltreatment rather than chalking it up to different parenting styles.    We can also keep abortion legal and protect the safety of people like Dr. Tiller who, despite any of our strong objections to his practices or not, does a service to the figures of child abuse in this country by allowing parents who don't want to become parents to opt out of doing so prior to any child maltreatment or neglect that may result of the alternative.

Christine,

At first I wasn't sure where you were going, but I agree with many of your points.

However, (and I think I'll get sidetracked here) you might also need to see that people "hitting" their children in America can be the result of different cultures' influences.  It is hard to change the minds of many immigrants, when their respective cultures encourage some degree of corporal punishment.  Many parents raise their children the way they think is best, and I find it really hard to accept that the government can just barge in and take many parenting rights away.

I understand corporal punishment could lead to abuse, but there is a fine, fine line between the two, and honestly I don't have an answer or solution to keep one from becoming the other.  That is, other than trusting that parents are doing what they think is best for their children.

Moreover, if you really want the government to get involved when it comes to corporal punishment, soon after it might be ok for the government to take the children away if the parents are feeding them fast food, or letting them watch too much TV, etc.

Anyway, I think I'm getting sidetracked, but we can bring this argument back to abortion: the government shouldn't have a say about what a woman can do with her body.

Very dodgy topic.

I'm happy to stay on topic, but I can't let those comments go without answer, I'm sorry.   So to sidetrack again for a moment, before bringing it back around to abortion:

All due respect, but culture is no excuse for violating any person's basic human right to be free from assault, just as religion, income, number of children in a household, previous familial history and/or 'my parents did it' don't fly as excuses to assault someone either.

I've never met a person, anywhere, who actually thinks it's 'best' to hit a child, even among those who do it.  There's always an excuse -- 'last resort,' 'I didn't know what else to do,' 'I snapped.'   People who hit already know it's wrong.

25 other nations have already banned the practice of corporal punishment as a violation of human rights.  The citizenship terms in the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which grant 'equal protection' from birth, indicate that we should be next.

As for the idea of invasive government -- the government already has passed regulations that are far more invasive than 'don't retaliate physically against your children when you are upset with them.'   There are already laws about provision of adequate nutrition too.

In any event, coming back to the topic, I agree that abortion should stay legal, for a variety of reasons.    I brought up the relation to child assault in the U.S. because in my opinion, the biggest of the reasons for abortion to be needed as a legal practice is found in the costs to society of forcing people who don't want to be parents to become parents.   Kids are supposed to be welcome and wanted.  

The body heals, sometimes the mind doesn't.  Mistreated kids grow to become adults and have influence in our communities.   Just how many dangers does that pose to society?  The Phoenix Children's Hospital recently released a report on the effects of corporal punishment - it's worth reading.

Per 'Prevent Child Abuse America,' a conservative estimate says that $103.8 billion per year is spent in America addressing child maltreatment.   How much higher would that figure go if people like Dr. Tiller didn't offer the services they offer when parents decide they no longer want the baby?

Personally, even though I am in support of the legality of abortion, I find late term abortions vile.   But considering all of these figures on child maltreatment in the U.S., it's the lesser of evils.

Your point of view is very pragmatic and I agree with it.  Forcing people to be parents puts a burden on society, scars children, and the costs of supporting those families are really high.

However, I still think that completely banning corporal punishment or making it illegal would bring negative repercussions to society.  I mean, what about Natural Rights?  Whose kids are the ones being hit, yours or someone else's?  Why is one philosophy better than the other?  In the natural world, when a baby lion (for example) bites the lioness, the lioness nips the little lion to keep it from doing it.  Why?  Because the cub doesn't know any better and needs boundaries.  Human kids can run out of control without boundaries: they start doing drugs, become really rebellious, etc. So much for protecting them from their parents.  They then can also blackmail the parents by threatening to call child protection.

I want to clarify something: I do not have children and I probably will NOT use corporal punishment when I do have them.  However, I grew up with it, and so did almost everyone I knew, and I feel like I'm fine.  I'm not scarred, probably because it didn't happen very often and if it did I was given a lecture.  I don't feel like I was abused. 

The part that does scare me, though, is that it can be a gateway to abuse.  But can't this all be resolved with educational campaigns?  Teaching parents not to cross the line?

Thank you.   :)

The trouble in terms of changing social views on corporal punishment is partially in so many people equating corporal punishment with discipline.  Discipline is meant to teach, not hurt.  Hitting is just a form of bullying.

It's easier to hit than to find another way to solve a problem sometimes, undoubtedly!   But that doesn't make it okay. 

Until we change that way of thinking, it's very difficult to accelerate the declining use of violence in America with just outreach/education alone, and without the assistance of new legal language prohibiting assault on children.   There are still millions of kids who need more help to be safe.

Honestly, it scares me to think how many more children would be abused or neglected if abortion wasn't legal.   Not to bring more politics into an already political issue, but I'm very relieved that Obama was in the position to choose our next Supreme Court justice and not someone else.