Women's Rights

Men are not Women, and Women are not Men. The problem I have with chauvinism (and it comes from both men and women) Is that it is focusing on why one side is wrong, and the other is right.

The current focus on why women needed to be treated as equal is wonderful, but lately I've been seeing a lot of hate that is doing the opposite of male chauvinism, in attempting to propel women above men.

Equality is two sided, because by it's definition multiple parties must be involved. If the only focus is on how one side is good, and the other side is bad, we're going to grow up with a whole generation of confused children. Men afraid to be Men, Women afraid to be Women.

Nothing sexier than a feminist liberal man hell-bent on bringing down the corporate conspiracy! :)

Why not teach our young men to be the polar opposite of the macho jock type ?

You know...Gentlemen who understands that you can treat women as both equals and ladies at the same time. 

Instead of always expecting men to take the lead whether in social activities like dating or in any other capacity that traditionalists seem to expect...Let us men be passive without making us feel less like men.

I bring that up because all too often there are still too many women out there that seems to expect exactly that while wanting to be treated as equals and thats like wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

It cant be done...Any more than expecting us men to know what you ladies want and/or expect without telling us.

Yes...Some of us men, myself included, actually do need some things spelled out...Just as women would like for us men to communicate more often with them...Some if not more than some of us men would like the same from ya'll.

I read Courtney Martin's post, and while I normally like her writing, and I like feminist men being called out, I agree with Alex DiBranco on this. I guess maybe, being a feminist man myself, I never had problems with fitting feminism and masculinity together, that came naturally. My other problem, and this is where I disagree with both Ms. Martin and Ms. DiBranco, is that the feminist struggle, like most other struggles, is largely definied (out of necessity) by what it is against, rather than what it is for.

Think about it. What it is FOR is simple: equality, respect, and peace. These are values taken is a given (and usually practiced) by feminist men and women (and even many who do not describe themselves as such). What makes a feminist is not the ABSENCE of distinct sexist feelings and actions. No, feminism is defined, per se, by its militancy, its effort to DESTROY, to ERADICATE, to ELIMINATE sexism, male priveledge, gender-based violence, etc.

A feminist, male or female is not necessarily different from a "neutral" person, except in her/his awareness of male priveledge, and her/his determination to make it a thing of the past.

I hope that didn't sound incoherent.

Samuel, thank you for your thoughts. I understand where you're coming from, and would agree that sometimes feminism is conceptualized as being anti-X, rather than pro-something--like, as you say, most other struggles.

However, one of the reasons I think it's so important for people to identify as "feminist" rather than simply "not sexist" or "anti-misogyny" is that it does make a powerful positive statement for something, rather than simply a reaction against. And the fact that what feminism stands for is so simple--equality--is what's so powerful about the term.

I would also disagree with your concept of feminism as being defined by "militancy" against, in particularly militancy against male privilege. Feminism is about equality, regardless of your sex. For me, feminism is an issue of gender justice--though there is a particular need to address women's rights, domestically and especially globally, sexism and gender stereotyping has its problems for men, too. Achieving full women's rights is inextricably intertwined with this issue.

In college, one of the best courses I took was called "The Masculine Mystique." It provided excellent insight into why feminism isn't just a women's issue--it's a men's issue too. Think about what a large percentage of American men spend significant portions of their locked away in prison, and how much of that is due to a culture of masculinity that emphasizes violence and being "macho"--which is also what leads to violence against women. Think about the intersection with sexuality, and how this culture views queer men. These are just the first things that spring to mind.

And feminism is about being pro-choice--and I don't just mean in terms of abortion. One of my cousins is an amazing lawyer--and her husband did an excellent job as a stay-at-home dad for a few years while she worked. (And they're Mormon to boot, which is generally not the most feminist of religions.) This is a choice they could make because of the gains of feminism, and it was one they were both happy with (and so were the kids).

So, I think that what makes a feminist is someone who wants to make a positive statement that they are for women being lawyers, if they want to, and men being stay-at-home dads, if they want to. That they want everybody to feel safe walking down the street and in their homes. Feminism is for justice, equality, respect, choice, happiness, acceptance--for women, for men, for people.

I would be weary of joining a men's only group that fights for gender equality.  I'd rather join a women's group where I can interact with them and understand their struggles better (just like they would understand my struggles with masculinity).

I think the biggest step to overcome as a feminist man is to completely disregard masculinity and instead strive to be a good person.  Many want to be feminist and still masculine, but this is extremely problematic.  Masculinity has been socially constructed to opress.  This enables men to be the subjects, while femininity makes women the objects.  Masculinity implies taking away the agency from women.  It's a stupid gender role one has to perform.

Masculinity and heteronormativity are so powerful that it results in all of these confused people who don't want to identify as feminist... but with enough support and educational materials, people should be able to find it within themselves to be good people that strive for gender equality.  Honestly, I don't need any role model other than whoever I choose to admire, and that can be a woman or a man.  This idea or need for a male role model for men still implies that masculinity is present and pressing.

Still, I guess a man feminist can help men take that first baby step into accepting feminism, before they reject masculinity.

Thomas, I also want to add that masculinity may not be the root of the problem.  It's patriarchy.  However, masculinity and femininity are embedded in patriarchy, and they have been socially constructed to be assigned to gender.  That is the basis of heteronormativity.

You are not born masculine.  You are made masculine.  We assign value to masculinity, and devalue femininity.  Therefore, having the ideas of masculinity and femininity are problematic.  Moreover, these ideas have been normalized, and we think they are innate traits.

It becomes problematic if we perform masculinity, but we are also seeing that it's problematic not to act on our masculine privilege (at least in the eyes of many).

Also, half the battle of fighting patriarchy is NAMING.  Language is an act of creating (it's not so separate from actions).  If we keep on speaking of masculinity and masculine things, we are recreating this structure.  If we joke about it, we're still being problematic.  The way we talk about the world, men and women and the interactions between them, we are essentially either reproducing it or speaking against it. 

Another thing I'm noticing is that we are also only speaking "against masculinity".  By speaking so much against something, these bloggers and even me are making someting so "normal" seem extremely abnormal.  We are making masculinity to be something horrible.  This has become problematic too, because men then feel inadequate and turned off, in a way.  So lets create some language to help these men have some direction to what they want to be, not just what they don't want to be.

I am a feminist.

I am a man.

I am a feminist man.

I can be "feminine" and/or "masculine".

(But those words have "definitions" that are highly problematic.)

I am a decent (feminist) person.

My feminism (the one where men can be pro-feminist) is not about 'equality, respect and peace.'  It's about realizing the unique contributions of women's ways of seeing, and acknowledging that even if they were borne of oppression, there is immense value in them, especially in their divergence from masculinist/patriarchal norms.  Not 'equality' but equal access to legit perks, even as we dismantle the system of those perks; respect for all beings, with the landbase primary, that's cool, and peace where it's possible -- and defense of the landbase with no extra value placed on pacifism.

I love Derrick Jensen's view that men must align themselves with women, do whatever it takes to make it utterly clear which side they're on.