Mr. dudley...What rights are you talking about ?

Unless and untill that child is born...Technicaly your not a father...A sperm donor yes...But not a father.

Even then...If the child is born...Unless the father does take responsability for his part in that child's creation...He's still just a sperm donor.

The woman on the other hand always pays a higher cost whether she chooses to have the child or not therefor her rights become more important than the man's.

@Thomas - So, you believe that until the child is born, the man deserves absolutely no parental rights? So, say, the mother chooses to use coke and meth while she is pregnant, the father has no right to intervene because it is her body? That is to say, no more or less right to intervene than if she was not pregnant with what, in your view, will only be his child once born...?

And you're also saying that, once born, the father should be able to choose if he's going to be involved in his child's life? In other words, he should have the right to walk away from the situation entirely?

Exactly although if the child IS born and the father chooses to walk away then while it would be HIS right to shirk his responsability...Obviously it wouldnt be RIGHT for him to do so.

@Lisa - very interesting wording, "exited her life"...

I get the impression lisa that I just blew your mind...Thank you though. :)

I've never understood why the word "misogyny" is so frequenly used. Misogyny implies intent to oppress because of hatred or contempt of women.

I would much more strongly suspect that this legislation is thinly-veiled pro-life. Men may never understand a woman's psyche and we may never give birth. That doesn't mean a man won't adopt of sense of fatherhood before birth and feel a sense of loss from abortion. To assume otherwise is pretty darn heartless.

Pro-life is not always anti-woman. My mother is pro-life. She can hardly talk about it with me because she gets far too passionate about it. She lost a child due to miscarrage and feels spiritually that a life was lost and truly feels that an abortion is murder. While I may not agree with her views myself, my mother is no hater of women.

It really makes me sad to see the term "misogyny" used at every opportunity. This definitely re-inforces the negative stereotype that feminists are playing victim patterns and does not help the Women's Rights cause at all.

Michelle, I apologize for picking on you directly. I could have responded to thousands of other comments that do exactly the same thing. I don't mean to attack you... I just felt the need to speak up.

I see what you're saying, Scott, because I get highly offended when someone calls me "Pro-Abortion" instead of "Pro-Choice."  Because really, is anyone Pro-Death? 

Also, very good to point out that most men, most responsible, loving men, will feel a sense of fatherhood before a baby is born.  It's those men that leave the woman in a situation where she feels the need to have to think about abortion that most likely don't feel those things.  And it's those men who maybe don't deserve a say once they walk away.

@Michelle - well said, men don't and will never (barring some sci-fi schwarzenegger-inspired drug/procedure) give birth to children.

One step further, I believe that too many of these non-childbearing men are putting their two, three, and four cents worth in this issue and its corresponding legislation.

Lisa - Indeed!  I think that legislation concerning men's rights in child birth is tricky (at best - disastrous at worse) until abandoned mothers are a thing of the past.  Legislation for men's rights concerning pregnancy seems like a socioeconomic elite luxury that would end up screwing thousands if not millions of single women that don't have the economic status (high paying job and reliable child care) to cope with being a single mother.

This issue reeks of the same rot that marred second wave feminism where, all too often, white women with class advantage forgot true equality (for ALL women - including working-class) for their own brand of women's liberation that had little to do with the majority of women at the time.

Scott- The hardest part about debating abortion is the fact that people are often looking at things from two opposite positions. Pro-lifers see this as a battle between pro-life and pro-abortion (or pro-death). Pro-choicers see it as pro-choice and anti-choice. Which really end up being two very different angles. People aren't even arguing about the same thing most of the time.

I understand that there are many good hearted and proper men out there who feel fatherhood long before the child is born. And some, though not all, of those men will actually step up and be a father to the kids once they are born. But this is not something you can guarantee. So unfortunately it is those men who flake out that set the low bar for women's expectations and thus influence part of their decision.

If I were in the situation I would think I would certainly consult the father, if I knew who it was. But that's my own decisions and I can't make that same response for other women because I don't know their circumstances or their personalities. But until a man who wants the child (with a mother who does not) can actually carry that child in his own body, it is still a woman's choice. She is the one who carries it for 9 months with significant changes to her body and her psyche and she is the one who often is the caregiver after birth, whether she wanted to be or not.

I don't mean to attack you personally, I'm just trying to explain how I see it.

And about misogyny- Does treating women as if they are not capable of being able to make decisions for themselves, about themselves, and trusting them to do what is right for them not show some sort of contempt for women? Laws like this treat women as inferior to the fetus, as incompetent beings who obviously need to be told what to do with their bodies by another man. So either these pro-lifers view us as stupid and untrustworthy or less than human. I know not all pro-lifers view it that way. And again, here is the difference of focusing upon the rights of the woman or the rights of the fetus. But all in all, I think we can see both some misogyny and some focusing on the fetus' rights.

Again, I don't mean to pick on you. I'm just enjoying the debate.

"Does treating women as if they are not capable of being able to make decisions for themselves, about themselves, and trusting them to do what is right for them not show some sort of contempt for women?"

@Kate - Contempt is "the act of despising". Not trusting someone, no matter how out of line it is to not trust that person, is not despising and is not contempt. So no, it's definitely NOT misogyny, at least not by dictionary definition. The feminist movement seems to have their own definition.

Speaking of Misogyny and Misandry, here's an interesting test:

http://search.twitter.com/search?q="I+hate+men"+OR+"I+hate+women"

This is a live stream and changes nearly constantly. Every time I've checked it, there are significantly more expressions of blatant open hatred towards men than women. What results did you get? Furthermore, I've found that a significant number of women haters... are women. Kind of telling, isn't it?

*sigh*.. Change.org apparently fails at autolinking.

Once on the twitter search page, you'll have to manually enter the search string (with quotes):

"I hate men" OR "I hate women"

@ Scott. I'll check out the twitter thing when I'm home. I've never actually been on there. Not such a big fan.

I guess I have to say I'm not surprised that these two strings exist. People generally always seem to enjoy taking pot shots at the other sex when they're mad at them. Break ups, bad encounters, junior high teasing, etc. Not surprising I guess, but I'm sure people are much more mean than they should be.

As far as who does it more, there are a lot of factors that could be affecting the results. Women are allowed by society to be more emotional, even when it comes to anger; how many male and female users are there on twitter and how aware is each group of the existence of these strings; how do women deal with anger and emotional things compared to men, etc. It would be a long list.

The definition of misogyny is "hatred, dislike, mistrust of women". I think the feminist movement has somehow unanimously decided to add "and oppression of women" to that list. Which when compared to the definition of misandry is interesting. To be a misandrist you only have to hate men, not dislike or mistrust them. Though I think that can eventually be implied. Much like the added definition of oppression is implied in misogyny nowadays.

About contempt: By strict definiteion, not trusting someone simply means just that. They find women untrustworthy. But why, oh why, don't these specific pro-lifers trust women? Lack of trust still implies some lack of intellect or that women are incompetent when it comes to making decisions about their own bodies. Either that or women are inferior and must have someone else to tell them what to do. Of course, this is not true.

What they are fighting for is power over women and their bodies. That is oppression. Trying to exercise their supposed power over women in a way that is burdensome to women. "Claiming not to know the father's identity is not a viable excuse"? "Women will have to produce a police report to prove it is rape"? Burdensome. And unjust, as far as I'm concerned.

You can't tell me that these types of pro-lifers love the women who have decided to get an abortion. Generally what you find is contempt towards abortion which easily becomes contempt to the person getting one or the people who fight for the option for others to have the procedure done. I could go into a long bit about how religion figure into all of this too, and how people who view it as a spiritual war view the fight differently, but that would take forever too. 

All in all, there are pro-lifers out there who are indeed misogynistic. I'm not saying all. Some pro-lifers are indeed doing this for what they think is the sake of the woman's well-being. Though that's an awfully high-handed way to do things. And you know, maybe even those who are making this law think it's really the best thing for the women, too, in the long run. Who knows. Peoples minds are complicated things. If that were true, though, I don't think I want these people trying to help me so much.

@Kate - Regarding definitions, Dictionary.com has a very different definition than Wikipedia.com. From what I've read, the definition of misogyny has evolved to be more encompusing mostly due to Feminist influence. This is not a surprise, as the term seems widely mis-used. Meanwhile, definitions evolve with the popular interpretation.

It's difficult to frame this conversation around the peice of legislation above. There is so much wrong with the legislation. 

The effective result of the legislation is the oppression of women. I agree with this.

The intent, however misguided, I can't accept is misogynistic without further evidence. I truly believe that these misguided folks feel they are somehow doing right. 

I actually makes me upset because I feel that there should be a honest, open, and serious discussion about a Man's rights and roles and this kind of thing only serves destroy any real conversation.

"Generally what you find is contempt towards abortion which..." 

I absolutely agree here... to the extent that some people are actually willing to murder doctors who perform abortions and feel justified about it. How sick is that?

"I could go into a long bit about how religion figure into all of this too, and how people who view it as a spiritual war view the fight differently, but that would take forever too."

Believe it or not, I avoid specifically saying how I feel about a lot of these issues online. My own believe system is pretty far from the mainstream. But yeah, you're touching on a HUGE dialog here. I'd love to engage it, face to face, over a coffee... when we have tons of time to kill. ;)

"All in all, there are pro-lifers out there who are indeed misogynistic."

Oh yeah... absolutely... and lots of priests are pedophiles...

...but, I really don't think teh bulk of pro-lifers are motivated by how they feel about women. I believe they are motivated by the notion that they sincerely believe abortion is murder and that murder is wrong. 

It's so much easier to "feel right" about being pro-choice when you can demonize the opposition as being anti-woman... but that's not really a fair assesment... it just makes people feel better about being on the pro-choice side - that's all. It's a psychologocal game we play with ourselves.

I suppose we'd need a nice dictionary that exists as a book. What have I got around the house? Websters Universal Dictionary and Thesaurus "With New Full Color World Maps!" from 1993. Ok, so its the best I've got. :) Misogyny is hatred of women, misanthropy is hatred and hostility towards men. Well that's interesting.

Regardless of the details, we can both assume that just as all words change meaning over time with popular culture, the feminist movement has indeed altered the meaning of misogyny to include other things. So though it may not be technically correct, you can't ignore what most women think it means and thus how they use it. Feel free to correct them, but don't expect its use to change any time soon.

"I truly believe that these misguided folks feel they are somehow doing right."

I'm sure they think so too. Which is really the scary part. The worst thing about them doing this is that it doesn't just keep abortions from happening, like they might hope. Time after time we've seen that making abortions harder to get, or making them illegal, just results in more back-alley abortions which kill more women.

"I actually makes me upset because I feel that there should be a honest, open, and serious discussion about a Man's rights and roles and this kind of thing only serves destroy any real conversation."

I totally agree with you. Very much. This really only set things back a few hundred steps. I wish all women had the option and the ability and compassion to talk with the father and include him in her decision. But that will require a lot of other things to fall in place that can't be guaranteed in all cases. Which is why legislation like this sucks.

"...but, I really don't think the bulk of pro-lifers are motivated by how they feel about women. I believe they are motivated by the notion that they sincerely believe abortion is murder and that the murder is wrong."

I know. It's hard for me to pretend I don't get that. I see why they fight for their beliefs. What I say to that, though, is that they are putting the rights of the unborn ahead of a woman who is already living, trying to do the right thing for herself, her situation, a million other factors, and maybe even taking into account the life of that future child and whether or not it would be a good one. When they say the fetus is more important than the woman, that's when I run into problems. It all goes back to letting women make the decision about their body. No one else should do that for them. No one has the right.

I'm a pro-choicer who wishes that women never had to be in that position- that we would have great family planning all over, and be able to eradicate pregnancy complications and rape. But we all know how well that's going these days (though Obama is taking steps towards the first, thankfully).

It is always easier to get mad at the opposition and see them as just wrong. That's how people often find the fire in themselves to keep fighting. I do it just like anyone else. Thankfully, calm and honest debates like this help bring you back to a balance.

P.S. I love discussing religion and spiritual beliefs. I was a religious studies major. Find it fascinating. Could do it for hours. It would require a lot of coffee. :)

Indeed miss bak...I concur.

Mr. dudley.

One thing Ive noticed over the years is that the dictionary meaning of a word tends to differ at least somwhat from the meaning aplied to it due to reality based circumstances so while its usefull to know what the dictionary meaning is...I also find that it doesnt do much in a debate based on real life experiances.

@Scott's first post

My first comment was a little underdeveloped; let me elaborate. And I do agree with you that "misogyny" isn't a word to throw around lightly and perhaps I shouldn't have used it here.

I never meant to imply that holding a "pro-life" viewpoint is necessarily misogynistic in itself. And I certainly would not suggest that all pro-lifers hate women or anything like that. Indeed, as you mentioned, many of them *are* women.

However, I feel that the particular law discussed in Jen's post is very discriminatory against women, if not to use that "m" word, in addition to being a pro-life bill. The bill requires a woman to reveal the father of her child and ask his permission. If she does not know who the father is, or if the father does not give his permission, the woman is denied the ability to make one of the most fundamental and important choices of her life. As the blogger that Jen quoted pointed out, the wording of the bill implies that women are untrustworthy and irresponsible. When I read the post, I sensed an underlying hatred for women and that's why I pulled out the "m" word.

As you point out, men can "adopt of sense of fatherhood before birth and feel a sense of loss from abortion." I certainly wouldn't assume otherwise! Sorry if it sounded like I did. I think, though, that in a situation like that, it is likely that the couple is either married, or at least in a happy, stable relationship of some kind that would facilitate their discussing whether or not to allow the child to be born. I don't think the government should mandate this kind of discussion, because the government tends to screw things up and write horrid bills and laws such as the one discussed above. I think that happy, loving couples will have that talk without a law to force them to, and women who are not in that kind of a relationship with the fathers of their babies deserve the right to make that decision on their own, without government interference or hindrance.

I really didn't mean to stomp on anybody's toes--men, pro-lifers, or anyone else. I apologize if I did. I hope this second post clears up my position.

As far as Im concerned miss luella...A woman's body belongs to her and her alone just as a man's body belongs to him and him alone.