It's not a tough one to back at all, at least not if you completed that high school education that included the introduction to psychology.

Simple. The abusers are cowards and they take it out on ones that they feel can not defend themselves.

Yes, teenage (children) sometimes attempt to solve problems with violence. The main word that you want to pay attention to in your statement though, is CONCENTUAL. A man abusing a female is not concentual or fair. And some bruise and heal, some do not. Some people remain in therapy for years attempting to heal those emotional scars caused by those fights.

I think my father's advice applies here, "you know you are just as bad as they are if you CAN understand their mindset." I don't want to go there do you? Their reasoning for the abuse is irrelevant. It just needs to be corrected. 

Mr. dudley...Its one thing for two men or even two women to engage in a fist fight BUT its something else entirely for a man to hit a woman and yes...For a woman to hit a man.

Domestic abuse needs to end...Period.

@Lisa - I find it noteworthy that you site male on female violence in your comment but neglect female on male violence. Regardless, my point was specifically about hitting and the comment that no one deserves to be hit. For example, does an attacker who is about to commit abuse deserve to be hit? I specifically chose that example as I would expect it to be hard to defend other than to simply be contrary.

In short, you're mixing violence and abuse. The concept abuse suggests that one person is dominant while the other is submissive and the victim of physical attacks to maintain the sub/dom relationship. This is distinctly different than using physical violence in other situations such as self defense, boundary setting, or sporting events.

@Thomas - You're perspectives never cease to surprise me. I'm at a loss as to why it would be ok for a man to hit a man or a woman to hit a woman... yet cross gender is wrong in both directions? The first thing that comes to mind is the strength argument... but my immediate response would be: then why isn't it wrong for a stronger woman to attack a weaker woman? or a weaker man? I'm just not grasping where you're coming from.

Domestic violence is not about who can inflict the most hurt or pain, it's about who has control.  A fight between a woman and man is never fair.  A man always has a choice to leave but a woman can be physically forced at the man's will to stay.  Domestic violence is about control, not instilling physical pain.

@Michele - I'm not sure who you're responding to, but control is what I was driving at with the sub/dom part of my comment.

However, the assumption that a man always has a choice and a woman can be physically forced to stay at the man's will is... well... not entirely true. This may be the case very often, but you're using words like "always"...

There are many MANY cases of men being physically beaten and abused by their female counter parts with the exact same impacts as female on male abuse. Furthermore, it's the "only women can be victims" attitude that contributes to a large percentage of these cases going unreported as men are ashamed to be victims of violence by women.

This is precisely why laws like the VAWA should not contain gender bias content. Not all men are strong. Not all women are weak. Not all men are cruel. Not all women are kind.

Abuse IS violent.  When we talk about domestic violence, some people think that means physical violence only and prefer to call non-physical violence abuse.  But they're missing the point.  Domestic violence is a continuum.  It is a pattern of repeated and progressive behaviors meant to control another person.  It does not have to be physical. 

Someone may quit hitting for awhile, but he won't quit being controlling in many other ways and it is all part of the violence.

Michele; I'm not sure I completely agree. Of course domestic violence is all about control however; without the use of the infliction of physical pain, there would be no such thing. And between a man and a woman, who has the capacity to inflict the most physical pain? This is why the U.S Dept. of Justice reports that 95% of all DV is committed by men against women. That is a horrifying statistic to me and even more horrifying, I'm certain, to the women who have lived through it.

I disagree, Mr. Nichols. I think emotional abuse is just as likely to keep a spouse without physical violence being necessary. Especially for women, or emotional men. Guilt is a horribly effective motivator. To be told that you are a person's whole world, their only path to happiness, is a terrible burden when remaining feels like stones on your chest, or like drowning. Believe me, I know. Physical violence is just the most visible method of abuse. Emotional abuse (and it's effects) last long after the physical part is over. Even after leaving, women often castigate themselves for abandoning the one they love, leaving them to a life of pain (as they are told).

The statistics ARE horrifying, but show only the surface, which is the real shame. BTW, Mike (if I may call you that), I like your postings. I understand the BDSM lifestyle, and you seem very proper.

Mr. ic...

The reason for my take on that is because even though I would love to live in a world where no violence exists at all...I also have to be realistic.

So...Better that men hit men and women hit women than, as you put it, for there to be cross gender violence...Not ideal by any means BUT better than what we have now.

As for the strong v's the weak scenario...Well, aint that partialy why we have the violence we do ?

The violence can follow you for years.  I was just fired from my job for mentioning that I was abused in my marriage.  We were in Hill Side, NY training class learning the take down holds and how to break holds, that they use on the children and teens that they keep there.  They are children that have been abused that are kept there because they have begun acting out.  When they came to breaking a choke hold I said, "I know how to do that one"  The instructor said, in a demeaning voice, "I doubt if you know the correct way."  I said, well I was shown by a taekwondo instructor, who was nice enough to teach me for free so I could protect my self against my husband who use to like choking me."  The next morning I was called into the office and told I was fired, due to being unprofessional.  When I asked why?  What did I do?  They told me, because I said that my ex-husband use to choke me and that was not appropriate for me to talk about.  I said it was a class room of adults there were no children there?  They said it does not matter, that I am still in my trial period, if I was out of my trial period I may be able to contest it, but you do not have that right.

Vikie, I know that you cant be fired for something like that. I have had classes similar for teaching behaviorally challenged students and your remark in no way is enough to fire you for. I'd say you have a discrimination case.  I would bet you were fired for fear your ex husband would go to your workplace and cause trouble, still its not a legitimate reason to fire you whether you were under a trial period or not.

Even though you were in your trial period, you could still file a wrongful dismissal lawsuit, even in an "at-will" state.

Thank you both.  I know that it did not feel right, there had to be more to it, but I could not get a straight answer?  They made me leave my work book too, and at the beginning of class they said it was ours to keep and write in?  I had notes written in there about things that I did not agree with and felt uncomfortable about that the instructor had said and done.  I am not much for fighting, so I am just looking for another job.  I will call my battered woman support though and see what they think.  That just is not right...  I really want to help children that have been through these things, I know I can help, because I have been through some of the same things they have.  God is just going to have me do it in a different way I guess.  I will Trust In God to Open the Right Door for me and pray that he helps the children at Hillside Children Center...

Write your book! If you can help just one women, it would be worth it. I too, was in an abusive relationship. So, if I could help someone by writing about my experiences; possibly saving them/their children from repeating the same cycle of abuse....I wouldn't be able to write fast enough. I'll buy your book, Good luck!

@Etrangere - Not to pry to deeply on a sensitive subject, but can you speak to the factors that made you think it was your fault? What can be changed to make a core difference? And, if you don't mind, what culture did you grow up in?

Because the abuser eventually breaks you down, to the point where you start thinking that you do, in fact, "deserve" it, that you must have done something wrong to "make" him angry. The abuser continually blames you, until you buy into it.

Etrangere; what we need are more women like you, who have suffered abuse and broke free from it, to speak out and tell others what to do and how to do it and most importantly; Why they should do it. Women will listen to other women especially other women who have suffered the same things as they are currently experiencing. This is, I believe, abused women's only hope of escape. So please; keep up the good fight. Put out the word. Any man who hits a woman is a C-O-W-A-R-D and not worth the room he takes up in the community. I am a man and if I ever felt the need to hit that badly; I have plenty of good strong oak trees on my property. One good punch into one of them will make a person lose the need to hit very quickly.

Thank you for your kind words.

 Along my journee, you can imagine I made friends with FEAR and sadly, it is still a part of me. I'm currently working on ending that relationship and look forward to speaking out...

Wonderful, I look forward to the day when we can work together to put an end to domestic violence forever.

Don't forget our own precious America Darlin. Domestic violence is pretty high on the list here also. I posted the statistics somewhere from the U.S Dept. Of Justice and the FBI. Yeah there it is. Scroll down and read my reply to Danetta Amschler.

As a DV advocate I'm aware of the statistics both in the US and around the world. However the post was about developing nations so that was what I responded to.

I see from your condecension to me (I am most certainly not your "darlin'") and your comments below about sexual intimacy and submissiveness that you are trolling so do enjoy that.

Jen--I'm bowing out of the discussion after this since I don't believe it can be constructive if it's being trolled. Great topic to bring up, as always.

I am not trolling. Just stating my opinions on certain things. Stop being paranoid. Why is there always one in the bunch that cannot help but think a man is coming on to her. I live in the south that is an expression we sometimes use down here. Get over yourself.

And why on earth does the use of the term: "darling" regard you as inferior in any way? I would think it would do just the opposite.

Oops correction. Use of the term: "darlin." I did not say "My darlin" so wtf?

Miss degray...To my way of thinking...Abuse of any kind doesnt make any sense to me whatsoever and I dont expect it ever will.

To willingly harm someone that you profess to love and cherish is most illogical.

Indeed..we have to also deal with a system that re-victimizes us.

Karlie; That is just awful and it is part of what needs fixing in our system of justice here in America. So let's set about fixing it shall we?

Fixing it? What's difficult is that the laws on the books are actually pretty good - though the application of those laws in the court rooms are often twisted. 

In trying to understand why that would be - I could only come up with the idea that those who would gravitate towards being a judge would likely be people who have a high need for control and that perhaps they side more often with the person in the room who is more like them in their need for control. 

Not saying judges are all abusive, but comparing the need for control.  It is human nature to feel more compatible with others more like ourselves.   

I have known of a couple of cases where the man clearly was unjustly served and in those cases the woman was the more controlling and the judge sided with her.  These were not violence cases, just trying to get some read on possibly why these things happen rather consistently. 

Of course, many divorces never get inside a courtroom because the parties manage to work it out more amicably.  Therefore, the cases that do go to court, typically involve the power dynamics of control and abuse.

Anyway - yes - fixing it.  Identifying the issues is a step in that direction.  Also, did you read the post I put up from Dennis Kucinich?  I appreciate his clear statements on these issues.

I agree, totally. It will take Men to change what Men have created. Not that the women can't make a difference with other women, but in this kind of situation women are seldom listened to by the men. Even here in the US it's not at all uncommon for women to be expected to submit to their men, especially in rural areas and small towns with a heavily devout, fundamentalist Christian make-up.

I don't think total non-violence is ever possible; it is the power struggle that is the problem. Whether the victim is a woman or a man, the aggressor's anger and lack of control (not to mention total lack of respect for their spouse/other) are to blame. I'd guess the reasons for the victim sufferring in silence are probably more varied.

@Susan: I'd like to bring your attention to the following Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_rights

All of the sources are cited, here are some key quotes I hope you will consider:

"...men and women act violently toward their partners in about equal percentages..."

"...male victims may be less likely to report abuse than female victims due to social stigmatization."

"...further studies based on the CTS 2 scale continue to show that women initiate violence at least as often as men, and perpetrate serious violence as often as men."

"... women initiate revenge behaviours more frequently than men."

Please think twice when you assume that domestic violence is only an issue with Men.

Bullshit.

Men are FAR more likely to initiate violence than women.

Mr. Dudley, could you perhaps find even one source that's dependable - say outside of wikipedia and not specifically oriented to "men's rights" - that makes such claims?  I've heard the claims a lot but they all seem to point back to the same circle of men's rights groups.

Mr. Dudley, smoke, mirrors and BS doesn't work on me after years of abusive mind games.  I can spot things like this a mile away.

Source per Miriam Webster at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/source Definition 1 for noun:

1 a : a generative force : cause b (1) : a point of origin or procurement : beginning (2) : one that initiates : author; also : prototype, model (3) : one that supplies information

Which means Wikipedia *IS* a source, it's just been selective in what the author(s) of that section used as THEIR sources.

For further information, it's also good to look up the word "reference" for that there's http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reference  The applicable definition there is again the noun and the definition is

Main Entry: 1ref·er·ence Pronunciation: \ˈre-fərn(t)s, ˈre-f(ə-)rən(t)s\Function: noun Date: 1589

1 : the act of referring or consulting
2 : a bearing on a matter : relation
3 : something that refers: as a : allusion, mention b : something (as a sign or indication) that refers a reader or consulter to another source of information (as a book or passage) c : consultation of sources of information
4 : one referred to or consulted: as a : a person to whom inquiries as to character or ability can be made b : a statement of the qualifications of a person seeking employment or appointment given by someone familiar with the person c (1) : a source of information (as a book or passage) to which a reader or consulter is referred (2) : a work (as a dictionary or encyclopedia) containing useful facts or information d : denotation, meaning

Finally, one thing I definitely learned from living with a a series of abusers who lived in their own little worlds and who desired those around them do their best to make the world in their heads the "real world" is that asserting BS doesn't make the BS true.  When mainstream DV and abuse experts all say the same thing, and all opposition keeps tracing to the same circles of mostly men's or father's rights groups, the very information about the rates of abuse by women is suspect.  I've encounted a guy on the local paper who inserts references to his website any chance he gets who runs such a website. Saying it's true, doesn't make it so.  If it's so true, such common knowledge and so easily proven, I find it hard to believe that - as many such sources allege the reason the info is "kept secret" is because of "a pro-feminist agenda".  

So I repeat, until when and if you can find a reference or source that does NOT trace as having ties to a men's rights or father's rights group - many of which happen to by run BY ABUSIVE MEN who are attempting to manipulate the system - don't bother.

It is a common myth that women are as violent as men.  A well-publicized study conducted by Dr. Murray Strauss at the University of New Hampshire found that while women sometimes do use violent means to resolve conflict in relationships, it concluded that when the context and consequences of an assault are measured, the majority of victims are women. The U.S. Department of Justice has found that 95% of the victims of spouse abuse are female. Men can be victims, but it is rare.

This is consistent with studies across the board.  Anecdotally, I can tell you that everyone I talk to seems to have a sister, a female cousin, a female friend, etc. who has experienced violence.  Not so with men.  Our culture, through subjugation of women, supports violence toward them.  I have seen women try to get help from their family, only to be told, "well he is paying the bills," or, "that's just how men are."  Men don't generally get told these things. 

Also, when women are violent, it's an anomaly.  They are called crazy, out of control, etc.  Yet men are encouraged to be violent, through sporting events and other things our society sanctions as "manly."

Often, when a woman chooses violence, it is for self-defense reasons.  Statistically, the violence inflicted on men by women tends to be less lethal.  If a woman punches a man, it is generally going to do less damage than when a man does the same to a woman.  Add to that the fact that the men are often the ones in control of the checkbook, the car, and other things they see as their role, and you can see how women are put at a disadvantage.

There has been a great deal of discussion in the domestic violence field about law enforcement and "primary aggressor."  In other words, when the police arrive on the scene and see a blotchy faced, hysterical female, and a calm male with scratches on him, they may side with the male who states she is crazy.  They don't see marks on her so she is arrested, and he gets the kids.  A day or two later, in jail, the strangulation marks start to show up on her neck; they often don't show at first.  But guess who had her children all that time... the abuser.  This is sadly common.

Scott, I believe you are making many assumptions about me without knowing much about me.  If your point is not about "who is hitting who more," then I'm puzzled as to why all the quotes about women being as violent as men?... those are myth-based quotes.  As far as my "anger-inducing stats," I'm sorry to hear that they made you angry.  I cited my source, which was a credible study done by a major university, and it was the truth.  How is that anger-inducing?

Men are victims of gender expectations as much as women are.  Ask any studious, quiet, non-athletic young man what kinds of names he's been called.  Usually those names are homophobic or based on female characteristics or body parts.

Yes, men can be victims of female violence.  Statistics show that 5% of violence victims are male.  This is a fact.  Most people are not in denial of this, but you appear to be affronted by it.  I am sorry that you were punched once by a female classmate.  Most of the violence perpetrated in the high schools is perpetrated by males, many of them trying to fit in and be more "manly" in the eyes of their peers.  I was terrorized for three years in elementary school by a boy who got glee out of punching and bruising me.  He was never held accountable.  I did what I would expect any male or female student to do: reported to the teacher.  Nothing was done.

Your assertion that my stating facts somehow makes me "responsible for allowing abuse to happen" is absurd.  I'm never happy when anyone is abused... men, women, children, pets, anyone.  That is why I have chosen a career in the field of anti-oppression. 

You, on the other hand, seem to have an agenda of denial that men are largely responsible for the violence that is occurring.  Perhaps this allows you to feel that it's not your problem, or make it easier for you to shrug your shoulders and do nothing.

I am committed to raising awareness about oppression in all its forms.  This includes an obligation on my part to being open to learning new things, even if they are uncomfortable for me to hear.  I hope you can read the posts from everyone on here with an open mind. 

I've also been accused of things I never stated.  I never said women never abuse nor that when a woman abuses it's "OK".  It's simply that abuse of women by men is by far more common than abuse of men by women and reputably gathered and prepared statistics such as the one Romy referenced have repeatedly proved this to be true at a rate of about 95 out of every 100 abuse cases are a man abusing a woman.  Any abuse is wrong, all abuse should be recognized and treated as wrong and punished as such.

I was abused by my father only to find that my Mom justified it as OK because "if he's the man of the house and he says it's OK then it must be OK".  Then when word finally did escape beyond the circle of various people I'd told things to and into the lap of CPS and onto the desk of someone who bothered to try to do something, it was only to find that at the time the area had a policy that if the accused abuser was a "fine upstanding citizen, as evidenced by certain professions (and my Dad's profession was on the list), the abuse accusations were only to be investigated with clearly visible physical evidence - meaning things outside of the clothing able to be viewed without even moving the clothing".  I found this out by becoming good friends with the investigator's son in college and finally getting to meet his Mom. Come to find out, the investigation was how she'd ended up with the job everyone knew about in Drug Abuse Prevention - they'd agreed to transefer instead of fire her.  I was sexually harassed in high school and reporting it only got teachers to join in.  I was raped in college and reporting that only got the college to brush it under the rug so they didn't have to admit a rape with a weapon had ocurred on campus.  He then stalked me and I was only able to get THAT to stop because of a move just barely across city limits and the cops (mistakenly) thought I was white and he wasn't and took a racist view of non-white men "messin' with their white women".  Then I got hooked up with my husband and that led to the story explaing elsewhere in the thread. Not once have I seen the system work as it should when it should.  But I've seen plenty of abusive men - and them having lots of luck at getting away with it for reasons like "boys will be boys" or "aw, he's not really doin' much and he didn't actually hurt you. He's just trying to be friendly and he apparently forgot the order again. Why are you complain' about that?"

Apparently Mr. Dudley also did not read my posting completely. It appears he only scanned it, as he assumed I was stating that DV was NOT only men against women. And I also made it a point to be gender neutral when discussing the reasons. The only thing I said that had ANYTHING to do with gender was my comment about women in devout Christian societies being expected to submit to their men. Which, btw, does not refer specifically to violence, but a degradation of women in general in some fundamentalist Christian groups.

Please read my postings carefully. I try to write them that way.

please excuse the confusion in my last post. Mr. Dudley assumed I was saying only men perpetrate violence against women. I was actually saying the opposite.

Ok, now I'm the one with egg on my face. I started my first comment with "It will take Men to change what Men have created". Looking back at that, I have to assume that:

1. I have a personal stake in the question

and 2. I also am guilty of making generalizations about others (which I do, despite myself, sometimes)

I apologize for that, as I know there are men being abused by their women (who are just as bad as the abusive men, and just as cowardly)

Susan, thank you for your last comment. 

@Danetta &Roma - You've picked a battle here completely out of context and I don't want to egage it any more. My original comment was inteded for Susana and I feel like we're on common ground. I do hope the both of you are able to heal from past experiences and know that I respect your efforts to fight against domestic abuse. I do plead with you to consider any anger you may be harboring towards men in general.

I did not "pick battles" and I do not "harbor anger with men".  Please take your patronizing, condescension, mind reading, putting words into my mouth, twisting of words, and false accusations elsewhere and find someone else to bully.  For bullying is exactly what you've been doing with me and I'm tired of it.  You do not know how I feel nor any reasons behind my posts.  Please don't begin to think that you do.  You do not have access to my thoughts and without that you cannot begin to truly know my motives.  Without access to my emotions, you cannot know if I have "anger towards men".  Actually, on the contrary.  I only have issues with abusers of all stripes and the majority of my friends have been male my entire life and continue to be so (the few friends I still have).  You've really made an awful lot of prejudicial presumptions about me and I don't appreciate it. 

To be absolutely honest, it's a form of emotional abuse to presume to know what a person is thinking or feeling and why they may be thinking or feeling so.  Thought you might want to know as a learning experience for future reference.

I have "anger towards men" for some of the things I've been through. That does not stop my intelligent mind from knowing that abuse is not entirely gender-oriented. However, it does make me tend to respond quicker than I would over a subject that is less personally hurtful to me. It is a human failure to make assumptions about others based on how we perceive their opinions, just as it is all too easy to misspeak when talking about an issue you have strong feelings for. Witness my semi-thoughtless statement in the beginning for an example of this, lol.

What?  I'm "harboring anger toward men" now?  Oh brother... tell my boyfriend, sons, and many male friends and community partners that.  I love kind, non-violent, evolved men.

Um, how did I pick a battle with you?  I'm simply presenting facts; how is that an attack of any kind?  If someone disagrees with you, it's a battle?

Apparently anyone with a viewpoint different from yours automatically is angry and hurt and needs to heal from the past and other such drivel.  What exactly do you think I need to "heal" from?  Danetta is right; you are very patronizing.

I am speaking my truth; let's not turn this into petty personal attacks, please.

Mr. Dudley here is probably one of those controlling men. He's already displayed much of the behaviors -- assuming he "knows" what we think, telling us what we "really mean", presuming to tell us how we feel.

As for my "hostility", well, when I smell bullshit, I point it out.

This thread is exploding and I am not going to attemp to engage the abuse being sent my way any further.

Susan - It's understandable to have anger towards men. There are a whole lot of really lousy guys out there and their actions speak loudly. You show a very rational temperment and an open mindedness. I respect your approach a lot. 

I never accused anyone of having anger towards men specifically... just asked that folks who are getting angry over the stats I posted (which were then censored) to "consider" it.

Of course, defensive over-reactions to such a comment often suggest something in particular.

Susan, to try to put a summary on this... I read and learn as much as I can and in the course of that, I've seen a lot of evidence that domestic abuse works both ways. I felt attacked by your comment at first, but didn't honestly believe you meant it to be hateful... so I responded by sharing the information (and the source) that I've been exposed to.

At this point, I'm feeling like I'm being verbally abused by a mob of people who were angered by those statistics. I've also been accused of being all the things "bad" that we're discussing here. Can you, perhaps, see where I have a feeling of futility and repression here?

I do wish the thread would have atleast been left uncensored so that future readers could see the entirety of the dialog. Censorship is a huge component in oppression.

While the futility and I feel the attacks, I'm not offended. It makes me sad... in a way... but I choose to engage the dialog because finding people like you who seem to be able to disconnect and look at various perspectives inspiring. Know that when *you* speak up... when you make conclusions about observations you've made of me... I will listen with an open heart.

Thank you Susan.

How did I learn that "reading minds" and telling others what they're thinking and what they're feeling and all about their motives, etc. is abuse?  I had to learn it from a psychiatrist over the course of two sessions - sessions I was forced to have after an event at the clinic in the exam room with the GP my husband and I then shared.  What happened was my husband had INSISTED that I go to his appointment - which served no purpose beyond his being able to keep tabs on me - and that meant that I, with my sore hip and back, had to sit on a window ledge the entire time at a clinic, in an exam room, where things tended to run behind by an hour or more on average.  To say I was in pain was putting it mildly.  Midway through his appointment - after doc finally showed up - my husband suddenly looked away from the doc and at me and lit into me wanting to know why I was "mad".  He kept at this until he was right on the edge of shouting and the doc stepped into the hall with the door ajar to find out if security should be called.  It was only making things semi-public that got my husband to calm down.  It took the two appointments to convince me that what was going on was abuse and that there was absolutely NO WAY IN HELL (the psychiatrist's words) that anyone other than myself could know my thoughts, feelings or motives unless I chose to tell them and even then they'd know only what I told them which might or might not be accurate. So Mr. Dudley, what you did IS abusive. If the shoe fits...

I would deeply appreciate it if you'd hold a discussion like an adult.  Repeatedly bringing up stuff, bringing up old stuff, being abusive, twisting words, saying people said things they didn't, etc.  are all things that are NOT part of discussing like adults.  They're part of unfair fighting and often abusive habits.  Before you go making accusations of others, perhaps you want to look at yourself for a while.  If so many are saying the same thing, there just might be something to it.

And if you'll go back and read my posts, I never once said what you've been accusing me of stating. You've repeatedly taken my words out of context and accused me of things that weren't even in my posts. It's not that men aren't abused by women, it's that it's far from commonplace.  I've also clearly stated that it's not right for anyone to be abused by anyone else.  So I expect an apology for the false accusations and the insults.

Hey, if the shoe fits....

Yep...I agree with you ladies.

Men on average are far more likely to be abusive and there aint no excuse for that.

"Women & girls have been discriminated against for too long in a twisted interpretation of the word of god" Jimmy Carter

I agree mr. nichols.

Submissivness in a dominant/submissive relationship is ok provided of course that the submissive whether man or woman actually consents to it and that an atmosphere of mutual respect is maintained at all times by the participants of said relationship BUT were talking about here the all too common situation where a woman and yes, in some cases, a man is forced to be submissive whether they will or not.

As I said before and will always say...There is no excuse for abuse...Period.

Women have been taught by their religion that they are to take it, after all it's for better or worse that we signed up for in the marital vows. Until religions see women as equals and quit preaching submissiveness as pointed out earlier. I for one grew up that way and after 19 years of abuse with a knife at my throat I left, but the abuse continued as the abusers use the judicial system for their gain. Its time we put an end to this madness. Needless to say I am not religious anymore just spiritual.

I agree 100% Thomas. If you will re-read my post carefully, you will note that I mention nothing about any kind of abuse being ok. I was referring to ATTITUDE that is all. A submissive attitude on the part of a woman during consensual sex can be do wonderful things for a guy but this is confined to attitude only. I do not advocate the physical, emotional, or any other type of abuse of anyone, man or woman.

Methinks, someone is confusing violence with sex. Isn't that a sign of the times...

Well mr. nichols, I will agree that, in terms of fantasy, a submissive woman can and probably would make a man feel powerfull although I have no personal experiance to base this on but in any case sir, if youll see the first two words in my post above then youll see that for the most part, I agree with you.

Still, in all fairness, what does having a submissive attitude, even in the context of mutualy consensual sexual fantasy role playing, do for the woman in question ?

Surprisingly, Mr. McHugh, there are a number of women who prefer to be submissive in the bedroom. I am most DEFINITELY NOT one of them (submissiveness to anyone, especially male, sticks in my throat, lol), but I know women, personally, who DO like it. And as long as it is a consentual agreement between adults, I don't see a problem with it. 

The problem arises when some men want to feel that way with a woman who is NOT consenting. 

Precisely spoken miss price.

I am wondering that myself. While it is true that women in some third world countries are far worse off then American women, we still have our fair share of domestic violence problems right here at home. A point I was trying to make earlier when I got accused of trolling. I am leaving the forum now. Bye all and good luck.

Indeed...Such knowledge is essential if were to put an end to it here.

Statistics state that a woman is physically assaulted every nine seconds by a spouse, former spouse, or other intimate partner.

       The statistics are stunning. Seven percent of women, or roughly 3.9 million, are abused by their intimate partners. Ninety five percent of assaults on spouses or ex-spouses are committed by men against women. Thirty percent of women entering the emergency room with injuries had injuries caused by abuse from a male partner.  An estimated seventy percent of men who abuse their female partners also abuse their children. (Statistics of Battered Women) The U.S Department of Justice reports that in 2001, some 471,000 women were victims of simple assault compared to approximately 50,000 men. Aggravated assault 117,000 women to 36,000 men and for rape/sexual assault, the number of women was nearly 42,000 compared to practically zero male victims.

(U.S Dept of Justice, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001; table-1)

The FBI concluded the number of forcible rapes during the year 2007, stood at 90,427. These were all committed against women and do not include statutory rape or other sexual offenses. 

(U.S. Department of Justice — Federal Bureau of Investigation) 

Have you heard about the woman in Malaysia who faces a punishment of caning for drinking beer in a hotel bar? God; I HATE RELIGION!!! So glad I'm an atheist.

My past would certainly bear out those statistics.  Not one act of violence I've ever suffered happened at the hands of a stranger.  On the contrary, it was only at the hands of strangers that I've found things like trust and kindness.  Try learning to build a normal view of the world when that's been your life's pattern...  But often these are the things that abusers look for or build into their victims - a really twisted view of the world and of who they are along with what they're capable of doing.  Once your abuser convinces you that for whatever reason(s) you're unworthy of things like love, trust and help, that you're worthless and incapable, etc. they've got you where they want you because even YOU no longer realize that what's going on is wrong or even if you do you don't think you deserve better or are capable of escaping.  Look down below at my story; I'd been married almost 7 years before friends started making me realize what the relationship was like, it took 3 more to try to leave (only to end up back with him) and another 6 to finally succeed in a protection order and filing for divorce.

Also, these numbers are a very low estimate.  Because of misplaced guilt and shame, as well as safety concerns and a myriad of other reasons, many victims of domestic and sexual assault do not report.  Most of what I've read places it at about 1 in 3 women experiencing domestic violence and 1 in 6 women experiencing sexual assault.

More people would come forward if they knew that they would be believed and supported by their church, police, doctor, family, etc.  And if they knew they'd be safe from the perpetrator, who would be held accountable. 

Until we as a society acknowledge the extent of the violence, and support survivors, these will continue to be hidden crimes.  We MUST speak up against oppression and violence.  The children are watching.

Quite a shame Danetta and although I cannot truthfully say I feel your pain, I am an extremely perceptive person so I might have a better idea than most who have never been there. I DO feel sympathy for you but in conjunction with the equal respect and appreciation you deserve. Yes that's right. I said appreciation. I firmly believe until some men learn to appreciate a woman as a separate entity and not part of them, this particular stigma will never change. "And God took a rib from Adam and from it he created Eve."  HOGWASH!!! If that's the case; I want my rib back. lol

No, we are all equal but as long as we cling to antiqated, outdated, beliefs such as this, women will keep on being abused because they are awarded little more respect and worth than the family dog by many men. I know this to be true because I have personally known women who were abused. I always found myself wishing I could have done more to help them even though I did all I could.

I would also like to say that Danetta and others are right.  The abuse is insidious.  The abuser generally does not start out with physical violence.  Domestic violence is a pattern which usually starts with emotional and/or verbal abuse, constant criticism and such, and gradually escalates into physical violence.  It also includes sexual violence, spiritual violence (such as using religion as an excuse or preventing her from going to church) and financial abuse.

A very common tactic is isolation.  She is gradually more isolated from her friends and family because his behavior has alienated them, she isn't allowed to hang around them, or they are fed up with her for staying.

If you have a family member experiencing violence, PLEASE don't give up on her.  It takes an average of seven times for her to leave for good.  If you turn your back after she returns to him, he wins and you lose.  Keep reminding her that it isn't her fault, she doesn't deserve it, and that you WILL be there when she's ready to leave.  You may save her life and if she has children, it may save theirs too.

Your right miss carver and that aint just with physical abuse but pertains to mental and emotional as well.

I spent damn near 30 years being abused mentaly and emotionaly by my biological mother and yeah...I constantly lived with the feeling/belief that I was trapped with no way out except death...And the irony is that the last 5 years of those 30 years, I wasnt even living with her so that should tell those of you who havent been abused what some of the lasting effects are even after "escaping"

I understand your points entirely Romy. While, thankfully, I have never felt the need to hurt physically, I have spent YEARS combatting my nature to emotionally or verbally abuse. Most of the time, I do it without even realizing it and then feel extremely guilty and sorry afterward. I have had this battle due to my strong religious upbringing and it is part of the reason why I am now an atheist. I am at peace with myself for the first time in my life now and I am finally getting the upper hand with this problem. I do not view women as inferior to me because of gender. My problem is more of an intellectual nature. I am very observant, perceptive and intelligent and I tend to regard those not endowed with the high percentage of these qualities as inferior to me regardless of gender. However; it is now under control for the most part but I had to dump the religion to do it.

'Abuse through mental, emotional, phycisal and spiritual violence are "tradgic expressions of unment needs". '

That is a perfect way to say it. I'm positive that the vast majority of abusers are only that way because of problems in their own lives. No "happy" person enjoys making others cry. Those who abuse are almost always found to be from broken and abusive homes. Their ability to deal with life on a daily basis is sometimes dependent on their ability to ease their own sufferring by inflicting it on others. "If they feel as bad as I do, then I'm not alone", kind of attitude.

That's what I liked about the comment about Grandfathers. It will truly take Patriarchs of our society to make a difference. If they helped raise a generation of men who saw nothing but mutual respect and kindness growing up, I would imagine domestic violence would be almost non-existent.

The trick is in getting that to happen.

AMEN Jonathan!!! You are absolutely right. However; it is difficult for a real man to stand up and defend a woman who will then turn against you and defend her attacker. Don't forget; this is not some stranger on the street we are talking about here but most often a woman's abuser is a spouse or other domestic partner and she is a lot closer to him, probably loves him very much, and wishes he would stop hurting her but she sure isn't going to let you or me hurt Him to make that happen. Many of these women are very mixed up psychologically and it is no wonder given the brainwashing they are subject to. The question is How can we best help them get past this to where they will ACCEPT help from someone outside their little world of pain? Most of these guys are smart enough not to beat their spouses in public so there is little we can do from an actual defense perspective. I believe I have a partial answer. I personally believe that any man who hits a woman is a coward. (I was going to use another word but I didn't know if it would get me in trouble) Maybe this is the message we need to be sending instead of telling women that it is wrong for them to be abused. The women know deep down it is wrong but their love for a spouse or sexual partner can run so deep that they will allow themselves to be killed before they will betray that partner. This is simply how many women are in nature and I don't see how you can stop that.

Or she knows that whatever anyone does to the abuser to "protect" her, he will eventually take out on her or her children and she is scared to death.  Statistically, women are in the most danger when they try to leave, and they know it.  Sometimes the woman knows that he holds the pocketbook, can afford attorneys she can't and will end up with the kids if she leaves.  She'd rather stay and protect her kids.

So please don't fall for the myth that women only stay because it is their nature to love the guy too much to leave.  Here's a great link:  http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_whydoesntsheleave.html

These women are not mixed up psychologically.  They are survivors of trauma who often have children who are being impacted.  70% of men who abuse their spouse abuse the kids too.

Instead of asking, "why doesn't she leave," why don't we ask, "why does he abuse?"  The crime is not the victim's fault.

Women don't "like" abuse. Until our laws change to ALLOW women to protect their children, abusers continue their abuse through the legal system, forcing bankruptcy, forcing victims to move back to the city the abuser lives in, forcing mothers to leave their children alone with the abuser, forcing years of continuing trauma for the mother and children. Our laws in the US are geared towards "father's rights", not "children's rights". Let these children speak for themselves at any age and let them say who they want to live with and when they want to visit, and domestic violence in this country will end.

Until we become the policewoman/ man, judge, azttorney, who stands for justice the law perpetuates this abuse even after you leave. You feelas if you are crazy because we believe the system will protect us when we leave and when we find out differently is when the depression sets in. No we are not psycholical damaged goods but strong women who are mother, daughters, sister, aunts, cousins etc. If each and everyone of us does something to stop DV whether it be not buying the rap song that sees women as a sex slave,a movie depecting women as nothing but equal, or merchandise that has a underage female dressed sexually to sell their product. It must begin with us.

That's awesome, Mike. You pegged it perfectly. A woman who loves with her entire being will throw herself into the fire to save her man. She just doesn't understand why he's the one doing the throwing, sometimes.

I just went to your website, and have bookmarked it.  Thanks so much for sharing this important resource!

Same here...thanks!

I hope I don't cause you any hurt with this question Karlie but I have to know in order to mount any sort of effective campaign against domestic violence. When you were being abused, let's say your husband was beating you and I grabbed him, threw him up against the wall, stuck my gun in his face and said: "Go ahead, Make my day. Hit her one more time and I will drop you like a stray dog." What would your reaction have been? Because like I said to Jonathan, many times the woman will side with her attacker because it is someone CLOSE TO HER. So please enlighten me. How can we get around this except to have women like yourself and others on here who have suffered abuse in the past to go out and talk to those who are still trapped in it and teach them how to get out. 

I agree wholeheartedly with you that HE should be the one to leave. No woman should be forced to leave her home because she is not safe there. The person causing the problem should be the one out in the cold. This is a 1960's menatlity and it has no place in 2009 society.

I recently wrote an essay for a college course I took on this very topic. During my research I discovered that children who WITNESS their Mothers being abused are three times more likely to abuse their wives when they grow up. How's that for a statistic?

In that moment, I would want you to do that.  The problem is, I have to be aware of the future.  The future would look like this: he goes away for a brief period of time and then returns - only now he's even more angry and looking for revenge.  Or he doesn't return, but he knows where my kids go to school or where I work and somehow he gets his revenge.  Are you going to be there making sure he doesn't?  They don't jail these guys for very long if at all.  

If my goal is to protect myself (and my kids) and that goal is long-term, the choice is not easy or clear.  As I said in an earlier post, there are other considerations in that choice including financial hardship and potential loss of custody of your children. 

The whole mentality has to change, as you expressed. 

And, don't know the statistic - but it is also true that children who WITNESS their mothers being abused are much more likely to abuse their mother!

I tell you what, had any man stepped in to get my abuser off of me while being beaten, I would have felt an angel delivered me! Now, upon my eventual return, I would have been mentally abused for having an "assumed" sexual relationship with the man who saved me, but I would have taken that much easier than the physical violence. You do have to weigh your "punishment" from your abuser for doing something or recieving help or anything else from another human being.

I always felt further victimization from people whom I sought help from and was turned away to only have to hop on one leg further down the street, under a light post so I could be seen, so my abuser couldnt beat me where he could be seen. I would have felt beholden to someone who at least called the police even had they not let me in the house, at least having a witness to the beatings takes it out of the victims hands in one way and returns the abuse to the abuser.

I have heard a man next door to me run down his girlfriend, throw her against the wall, threaten her and hit her. It caused me to go into a full blown flashback, but I called the police and stood outside waiting for them to stop the man. I refuse to let this occur near me ever again. I didnt care if the man saw me, or if he came after me, he would at least be off of her.

Sorry to go on, but this is a personal thing for me and once I can go forth without fear of retribution from my abuser, I WILL make changes about DV in the US.

Mr. nichols and miss carver.

Both of ya'll make very valid points...And while I agree that it aint never the victim's fault I also know that all too often the victim feels like they have to defend the staus quo...Or at least, thats been my experiance.

Thinking about this more so and my own personal experiances, I think that we all too often ignore too much of the truth when we seperate mental/emotional abuse from the other forms because all too often, the abuser does their damndest to convince the victim that the abuser loves them even while abusing them and all too often the victim buys into it for whatever reason.

Sorry about rambling but whether its physical or sexual or both...We also have to address the mental and emotional aspects too.

I agree miss cole.

The abusive man should be made to leave while the woman should literaly get the whole enchilada in an automaticly granted divorce from the abusive mate...And then toss the bum in jail for a long time...Although I personaly favor the death penalty but thats just me.

Thank you for your courage miss mcneil.

From my research I've found the community, both male and female, to be well aware of the violence against women and to be highly accepting of it. It is, sadly, the norm. My research was in developing nations so I think it can safely be applied to the countries listed in the above chart.

I imagine if any women in those societies did hit their husbands the repercussions would quite possibly be deadly. I also don't think matching violence with violence is a valid solution. Better to work to solve the societal issues that cause violence against women than to teach women more violence.

Remember Lorena Bobbitt? 

@Tamara: Why should women suffer abuse in silence? If a man tries to hit me, I will defend myself, even if that means hitting him back. It's time men learned that hitting women has consequences. If those consequences include physical pain and injury so be it. Men who abuse women deserve it. 

Amanda, at first you do hit back, but once the abuser see's your strength, he hits harder and harder and by defending yourself you show them everything they need to know to make it worse the next time. You get to where you dont fight back, you do try to remain breathing if they choke you, thats a fight or flight thing you cant control. Also after youve been beaten enough and the police become involved if the police see that you have fought back, you can be taken to jail with your abuser, if you have a young child you cant hit back and have CPS get them in the middle of the night. You simply learn when you can fight back and when you cant. I've had an ambulance driver tell me that I should also be going to jail for fighting back. I told him right away to take me there and asked him would he just allow someone to choke the life out of him without a struggle? The man shut up, I wonder why?

That's horrible. Until the legal system gets over its pervasive male chauvinist bias people will continue to lose faith in the law enforcement system, which will discourage victims from reporting domestic abuse. I admire your strength and courage in telling me this; I can only imagine how difficult it must be to talk about being abused. 

Thank You Amanda. This is a difficult topic, one thats constantly swept under the rug, even in my own family its not discussed. I didnt grow up in DV what so ever, though I grew up in a traditional subserviant home. DV can truly happen to anyone. My fears arent in posting my opinions or in what I endured, they lie instead on the release of my abuser from prison and how I will have to face him to get a restraining order that I know he will not follow. 70% of abusers with restraining orders of any kind, violate them. He must violate it 3 times before he is sent back to prison. My fear is surviving all three times. Many would say I should go into hiding but I cant. I have to take care of my Mother who cant leave her physicians. I cant leave a house for some apartment in another state or leave without a vehicle. I cant give up my social security number for a new one and lose my medicare.

Why ?

We have women in THIS country who abuses their children and yes, their husbands too but whats your point ?

Theres no excuse for abuse period.

Self defense is another matter entirely.

Boy do I ever understand the plight of so many women illustrated here by Anna. I live in a small town in East Tennessee and here; DV is just a part of women's daily existence. I had a woman I know (wife of a used to be friend) say to me: "A man's got to keep his woman in line." I knew she got hit on occasion. This is the mentality that needs to change. As long as this is taught by the clergy and reinforced by our justice system, it will continue to be a problem in our society. Abusers need to face stiff sentences for physical and court appointed counseling for verbal and/or emotional abuse. Of course; for those who cannot afford counseling, it must be provided by the state and here we run into the age old problem once again of: "I don't want to pay for your counseling. I'd rather see you beat your wife to death. I don't want to pay for your health care, your food, just starve, beat your wife, die from illness because you can't afford to go to the doctor, but leave me alone. I don't want to pay higher taxes."

It aint just in tennessee mr. nichols.

Ive seen similar attitudes here in west virginia as well.

Ms. McNeil is right. If you fight back, it just makes them more mad, more violent.

Well miss price...Thats why we need a zero tolerance policy in regards to this in the first place...And to re-edumuhcate society into not giving these sadistic bastards any more free rides...Period.

Thats intresting that any judge would prefer abusive over non-abusive men...Very troubling too.

It's very simple Karlie. Rotten but simple. It's all about the money. Ever hear of some guy getting away scott free with abusing a RICH woman? Not likely. I hate that this is how our system works but I cannot change it by myself. Suggestions anyone?

I agree with this miss cole except that I dont believe that an abuser can ever be rehabilitated.

Well mr. nichols...

I say that we give more power to the women by giving them more money but Im not sure that would or should be the whole of the answer.

They definatly need more power though.

Often times when the abusive parent gets custody of the children, the abuser doesnt show his true nature in public and when the abused cry out or call for help, they are seen as the loonie toons. A person with a sociopathic /psychopathic mental disorder can live a normal life in public, even a life that appears golden, but behind closed doors he changes and becomes, "Mr. Hyde." Only after several court appearances or the children's behavior shows obvious signs of abuse, will a judge then begin to possibly see the light of the matter. When the abuser becomes so enraged, he reveals his true personality in public. Still, most states in our country still believe that the abusive parent deserves access to his or her children should sole custody be given to the victim / survivor.

I would bet that in the countries shown in the graphic above, the children are awarded to the father regardless of the depravity of his abuse.

That's a good point about abusers.  The one I've lived with isn't the man anyone else knew with few exceptions (like a couple of his very close friends who'd let him stay with them when he was "really unstable" - their choice of words and even they didn't know the man I knew, only that they couldn't rule out such a possibility).  In public, he was charming though manipulative in ways only few could ever detect. In private, he could be an unholy terror doing things you'd never suspect his public persona could even think about doing to ANYONE - much less to a family member. 

The first time I left, he spread lies so thickly you could fertilize a good chunk of Texas with his BS.  He called his family, his friends, our friends, our mutual employer, MY friends, MY family, anyone he could think of that knew ME and told them his lies.  He even hacked my email and my webpage and sent emails and posted the lies.  He told everyone that whatever I was saying about him was untrue, that it was all in my head (the paranoid delusion wording hadn't quite developed yet) and that I'd left for an affair - even convincing some I needed "prayer for deliverance".  It wasn't until he got so cocky that he slipped up and did what he did at the doc's office and they had to basically start deprogramming his brain washing of me that the mask slipped - and only because HE had slipped up and done something where he'd had witnesses.  Slipping up and having witnesses was something he had NEVER done before, not in the entire time of our marriage - and this time he did it badly enough to scare a witness.  Had that never happened, to finally let me start putting the pieces back together, even *I* would have likely never figured it out he'd told - and sold - his story so well.

But this is what so many of them do. Whether truly sociopathic/psychopathic or not, abuse is a control this and it's generally very well controlled by the abuser - who can turn it on and off just like a light switch.  Thus all the tales of things like women who call police about being abused only to have the police show while they're still upset and their abuser is cool as a cucumber.

I have your back on this one, same thing happened to me, was held captive for days in my own house. The police removed mine and he broke back into my house 2 hours later. I wasnt allowed use of the phone, my keys taken from me and not allowed to eat or even pee without my abusers permission!

I dont trust the system much anymore either, I have to take care of myself, the state sure will pay you what your out for, but so far as keeping you informed about your incarcerated abuser or keeping them from contacting you, the state fails extremely so!

Now he's out there, somewhere, and I feel like I can't go anywhere alone anymore.

Yeah, I know what you mean, its difficult for me to live always looking over my shoulder, second thoughts over living too carefree by leaving the door open as I bring groceries into the house, things I just cant do.  Cant come home after dark, fear of ordinary things others take for granted, always on guard just as if they ( the abuser ) was still in your life determining what you could or couldnt do. I have just a few more months of living less paranoid, he will be released March of 2010. I know I'll probably puke the morning of his release out of extreme anxiety. Stinks doesnt it?

I'm tired of being scared, paranoid, jumping at every little sound outside, wondering if he's lurking in every shadow. I feel like I'm going crazy!

From what's been pretty much a lifetime of abuse of one sort or another I have PTSD.  Between things keeping the PTSD aggravated and having the sort of luck to get a run of therapists who were absolutely clueless about treating PTSD, it ended up more deeply engrained if anything.  What I've ended up having to do is use what's called a psychiatric service dog.  He helps by alerting me to the presence of others and by helping to assess if they're something I need to stay alert to or if they're "safe" people - something I long ago lost the ability to accurately judge.  If you want to read more about psychiatric service dogs, go to www.psychdog.org

I dont blame you miss burt.

Heres something you folks may not be aware of.

Before I canceled the false friendship of a retired cop, he told me that all too often, the police dont want to get involved in any domestic disputes for many reasons including the one that the victim all too often goes back to the abuser.

Not that thats any excuse but I thought ya'll might be intrested...Seems to me that they should get involved more often...

Anna and Shawna, it's so sad to hear what you are going thru.  And though you must feel so alone, you are part of a sisterhood of women who are in the same boat.  Is there a local women's center you can talk to?  Our local center helps people with safety planning, gives free emergency cell phones, helps with cyber-safety, and all kinds of other services.  What you are going through is very real, and you deserve all the help and support you can get.

I will be thinking of both of you and hoping you get some services to keep you safe.

I absolutely agree!! I wish Anna, Shawna, and Danetta all the best and I hope they NEVER suffer abuse again. It is a terrible thing and I am so against it. I wish I could make all that hurt just go away. I can't tell you how ashamed I am to be a man right now even though I have never hit a woman in my life and I am 50 years old about to be 51.

Thank You for your prayers and interest, it is truly appreciated.

I do have PTSD, I do have a specialized DV counselor, and shelters are not all what they appear to be on the surface. Some are really good and helpful, some arent. Where I am, its not so good its run down and in a horrible part of town and my Dv therapist used to be on the board of directors and held therapy sessions there, and he even agreed that it was no place for me or my child. I am actually beyond needing a DV shelter anyhow and since a woman IDIOT and I lived near asked IDIOT to drive her to the shelter and drop her off there, it isnt a safe place for me anyhow. I plead with the woman to call a cab and of course she didnt. I do have several plans of action to keep myself safe upon IDIOTs' release though the actions wont help the PTSD over all. I am not incapacitated by my PTSD and have instead embraced it and will use it to stay alive. It would be nice to have a service dog watch my back when I am too tired to do so though. Its kind of like how I've seen male inmates behave in prison, you keep your back covered and scan the perimeter for threats, always assessing the movement and sounds and smells. I had rather live on alert though like this than I had live wondering if I will live through the next 24 hour period.

I've found a totally awesome group on Cafe Mom that supports moms who have been through or are currently involved in a DV situation.

In my opinion our country should change the populations views on DV and only focus on the victims and survivors and public education. People who are abusive are mentally deficit, sociopaths and psychopaths. Trying to send them to some program or what ever else to change them just isn't going to happen, their brains were altered by not being shown love the first three years of their lives, and that source can be found in the books written by Lundy Bancroft and in any psychological text.

Here's a question for everyone who thinks the abusers should be given help to change their behavior....

Is there a therapist, counselor, program, anything out there, to make 1, just 1, person with Downs Syndrome normal? or lets say return someone back to normal functioning level who has extreme Alzheimer's?

The false hope that abusers can change and no longer abuse is one in which actually KEEPS a person with their abuser! Thats why it takes 7 times on average for a woman to leave, she hears of hope in this program or that therapist or in AA, or NA or from a pastor or how someone changed while she's at the beauty shop getting her hair done, " So and so changed and never beat his wife again once he did _______." In all likelihood, the person still abuses but in other ways and behind closed doors. A sociopath can curtail their abusive behavior in front of others with whom they know  wont allow it and they can do it for days, weeks, months or years if they must.

Enough for me tonight, take care!

Blessed be and good fortune to you miss mcneil.

And it could be said to be equally disturbing that you're unwilling to listen to what's said to you and that you've declared us "rudely shouting BS" after stating things we know were untrue in our own lives, things that don't hold up to statistics as shown to us by our support teams, and that we know from our own research and from what's been taught to us by our support teams and people we may work with that trace to "faulty research". Yes, there IS a lot of "faulty" and even "false" research out there about DV, its causes and "why the abused partner stays".  Actually, there's a lot of debate outside of AA and related programs as to whether there's really such a thing as "codependency".  The exactly TWO counselors (out of well over a dozen) that I've had who thought codependency at least might exist were all sure I didn't have it.  The others all agreed with what I posted above, that I've been terrified to challenge him to leave and unable to find what I need when I needed it - this is NOT codependency.  At the very least, you're trying to paint all of us in abusive relationships with a very broad and stereotypical brush.

It's also false to say that abused children grow up to be abusers.  Abused children do learn dysfunctional relationships, but many of them learn lessons far different from "learning to be abusers".  Actually, many learn that they only "deserve" abuse - which is a very hard lesson to "unlearn".  Or they grow up to become the sort of overly permissive parent that *may* contribute to becoming a future abuser if the child develops certain violent habits AND certain personality traits.  However, the few that do learn to abuse partners as a result of childhood are often the most horrific of all who commit DV - because they learn horrid ways to commit assault, think it's normal and may even learn how to get away with it.  They also run a higher risk of certain psychiatric disorders or so says SOME research.

Drug abuse however is an excuse for DV.  Not all who use drugs or alcohol will ever be violent, least of all to their intimate partners.  Alcohol and drugs lower your inhibitions.  If you're not prone to violence, you won't get violent - unless you try something that flat out induces an episode of psychosis.  So if you're discussing a substance or alcohol abuser who's also a partner abuser, the violence when drunk or high may be worse but someone who doesn't abuse in any ways when sober typically won't abuse when high.

There is something wrong with society when we're willing to find - and accept - excuses for the abuser's behavior and to look for - and accept - excuses to blame the victim even if just for why she or he would take abuse or stay for more than one episode.  Clearly you have no clue how insidious abuse can be.  It rarely starts off with someone beating the ever living crap out of you or sexually assaulting you.  It much more often starts with emotional abuse until you don't even trust yourself or your thoughts and and systematic control and isolation - THEN the physical stuff along with threats start.  By then it's really hard to run, unless by some miracle a friend or family member has actually stuck by you through all his crap (and only a very rare few do).

Women who are being abused in a relationship aint co-dependant sir but rather are prisoners of war...The reason being that as a general rule, they are convinced psychologicly that leaving would be worse for them than staying is...For that matter, the same could be said for abused children.

Mr. ball...The impression Im getting from your posts IS that your trying to find excuses for men's violence...

Your right that not all who abuse were abused and not all who werent dont BUT again mr. ball, it doesnt matter whether they were or not...Theyre still responsable for what they do.

I'm with Shawna, that I need to leave this thread, but I'll do you the courtesy of attempting a reply.

I do think that some teaching of relationship skills and in particular how to recognize bad relationships should be part of our school curriculum just as much as stuff like sex ed.  Why?  Because so many are taught, as my Mom was (for example) that no matter what the circumstances it's best to stay with the man/father/abuser because having a "dad" is "always best for the kids" - which totally ignores the damages that abuse does to the Mom and child(ren).  My PTSD is so bad, that my best prognosis is "learning to live with the symptoms". Staying didn't do me any favors worth his income and I really doubt it did Mom any such favors either if she were honest with herself about it.  My sister still (we've both been out of the home 20 years) has enough nightmares that I find myself wondering if she's ever been honest about never doing more than witnessing the abuse - though some of what went on would be really bad to even just know it happened. 

On the other hand, what's equally needed is a lot of systemic reform.  It doesn't do any good to tell people to leave or to help people recognize when to leave if the help needed to leave continues not to exist or to be spread so thin that there are waiting lists, that cops and courts continue not to take DV seriously or to take violations of protection/restraining orders seriously, that abusers can manipulate courts because the courts have yet to recognize how sociopathic and manipulative abusers typically are, etc.  As things stand, it's like saying to the abused partner that the door's over there and when they finally make their way to the door they realize they've stepped into a scene to play the role of Wile E Coyote as he ran too far and is waiting for gravity to kick in to pull him to the base of the cliff.  That's not much - if any - improvement over the situation we're telling them to leave.  Homelessness where you might be starving and abused or have a home and know what dangers you face?  Navigate the courts on your own or stay in the home and face dangers you know?  There's a whole long list of such questions to be asked and answered...

And with that, my all too active (since someone won't get the hint of his protection order) PTSD and I will be retreating to a safer corner and topic.

Miss amshler...Thank you for being here and good fortune to you.

I did such a good job of drawing everyone else out to the point of discomfort that I feel the need to bare my own soul if you are still listening.  I have had a tragic life in any estimation with father dying at age 9 (mother widowed at 26 with 3 kids) followed by abusive stepfather. Then first marriage partner physically abusive who later did 18 months in the State pen for attempted murder of her second husband (shooting in head in his sleep, luckily after our daughter was safely residing with me because of mother's physical and emotional abuse.  She was diagnosed with "borderline personality" by psychologists that they attributed to her abuse by her widowed mother, CIA father having been killed in Central America).  Then these things dwarfed by 3 later tragedies that I don't want to volunteer unless asked.  Yes, really.  So, sorry to come on tough as nails, but I'm damaged goods, you might say.  Yes, I do feel other's pain and have some similar personal experience; but I am not in any danger as some of you; just embarrassment.  Maybe it is better to keep anonymous in spite of this website policy.

Thank you too miss burt for being here and I wish you good fortune also.

Hey, now, I havent gone anywhere , I deal with this each day and keep going forward, for some having to defend how they were victimized is in itself a revictimization.  Its extremely difficult to get people to realize the entire picture when it comes to DV, excuses are made for the behavior and in a way I understand why excuses are made, its much easier to make that excuse than it is to accept that atrocities occur to any human being.

I chose the picture of myself that I did, not to gain sympathy, not for attention, but to put a face on the issue being discussed. I feel the issue should be represented by a face that that all DV survivors could relate to.

Anyhow, I'm not going anywhere

Im glad to hear that miss mcneil.

Romy,

What a surprising conundrum I found myself.  Consciously, my initial reason for getting into this blog is my education in what was called sociology of deviance in the 60's.  I am always interested in the fringe issues and phenomena.  I told myself I had no personal experience with all this and tried to remain academic about it.  So much for denial.  Whew. (I, a man, wasn't abused, God knows; just lived with a very intense and strong woman.) It is heavy and I can understand why the others pull out of the threads for a time to mellow out.  Thank you for understanding.

Excellent point Cherokee Fred. I abhor violence against women of any kind but in a case like the one you described, where you were simply attempting to keep her from doing something she shouldn't have been doing, ie; driving drunk, you should not have been punished and your response is exactly what I would have done. Next time: Let Her! Then when SHE gets arrested you can say: "I prevented this once and I went to jail. How does it feel?

Well sir...You did the right thing by stopping her but I understand your reluctance to do so again...

Even so, I disagree with you about the pendulum swinging too far in women's favor...At least universaly.

We still got a ways to go before all women are safe from marital harm.

That's a very good and important point - that anyone who doesn't want to change won't change and no one can make them change.

When I left and came back, the ONE condition was that what had happened would NEVER happen again and he would take any and all steps necessary to make sure it never did.  So what did he do?  He manipulated me to where my docs were convinced and slowly I had to wonder if maybe they were right about it - that the abuse had only been a "paranoid delusion".  Then he started back in again only to slip up and do some of the abuse for our shared GP.  At which point, once finally convinced the abuse WAS reality, I permanently removed him from all my medical care and reminded him of the ONE condition of our being back together then added that perhaps he should seek treatment.  He saw a counselor 4 times that decided he had "abandonment issues" and he treated me like he did because he was afraid I would leave him. (What partner wouldn't leave or want to if treated like something you'd scrape off the bottom of a shoe?)  When I finally realized that all this time he was also being physical and the threats were getting worse again, I laid down an ultimatum that it stop or we would cease being a "we".  We're no longer a we except on paper and only there because the divorce is still in process.  Suffice to say as far as he was concerned, things had to be his way to continue and that resulted in me ending things.  Obviously he had no intent to do more than change just enough just long enough to "look good".  Which is yet another DV pattern....

Oceania, just wanted to make sure you knew I wasnt trying to step on your toes above, just wished to make a point known about how DV begins.

I didn't take it that way Anna.  I agree with you.  I'd go even further.  If your partner in a fit of rage calls you a slut or a bitch, and under all other circumstances it would be clear that you most definately are not that, you have to ask where does that come from  ....  where will it lead under high emotion?

I guess what that story leads to is that we need to take personal responsibility for what we are seeing in someone.  In moments of runaway emotion my ex was seeing another person entirely and I, as the target, can (under great difficulty sometimes) not give in to taking this personally.   There was an occassion I remember when I was so completely grounded in my own selfworth, that after all the ranting, pacing and sweating, I asked him if he was finished?  It stopped him in his tracks and he could see himself clearly.  I just knew I may not be in that state all the time and the whole business left me drained dry after 10 years together.

Before I go, I came across something that might account for why adults don't grow up, and what may contribute to much of the conflict in any household or even global situation Sometimes to be a better man, you need to think like a woman

Great article Oceania. I'll have to try and remember that. Of course; that might be bit difficult since I am THE problem solver in our home. What I'm saying is, everyone Expects me to do it and if I don't, it doesn't get solved. Some problems you can let go but there are some that simply Must be solved or you will face some major catastrophe. I get stuck with all of them. Is this fair? I mean; just because I'm GOOD at it does that make it right? I don't know; you tell me. Stuff like this I consider nit-picking. If you have a problem and it is critical it be solved a.s.a.p, such as some type of financial crisis, common sense should tell you that you give it to the person most capable of pulling the family through the crisis with the least amount of harm possible. It does not matter who it is. In our household, it just happens to be me.